How to prove shop used wrong atf

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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
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Do you have ANY IDEA how far transmission lubricants have come in the last 20 years?


Yes I do. I formulate ATF's, MTF's, engine oils, gear lubes, and specialty lubricants so I know every component involved in ATF chemistry.


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You are right that fluid is low cost compared to a transmission. But your recommendations will result in spending more money on fluid, and the transmission's life will not be prolonged if you took the fluid out to 50,000 miles on most vehicles.


Spending more money, yes, but your last sentence is disputed.

100,000 mile FF is pure marketing hype and is a wet dream and only valid if you drive 5000 miles a years at less than 55 mph.

The whole 100,000 mile FF is an attempt to convince the owner or prospective owner that he can avoid some lifetime maintenance costs but doesn't tell him of increased wear and potential failure.

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I drained the Dex 6 out of my Silverado at 50,000 miles (with half of those miles towing a 5,500 pound trailer) and visually it STILL looked good.


Visual observation tells you anything about wear, only if it MIGHT be oxidized.


So it says "Iowegian" is your name. Do you live in Iowa? If so, I'd like to know who in Iowa is formulating anything beyond corn syrup...
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
So it says "Iowegian" is your name. Do you live in Iowa? If so, I'd like to know who in Iowa is formulating anything beyond corn syrup...


Well, you have said some pretty ignorant things in other threads so I am not surprised you would pop in here and make similar ignorant remarks.
 
Originally Posted By: CKN


Nobody said take the fluid out to 100K. And your right-I wish I would have tested the Dex6 at the 50K interval-it would have been interesting. First transmission change for most at 50,000miles. If you formulate fluids-you should know your recommendations are OVERKILL. If not-please review with us how the New Fluids are not that much better than those of 20 years ago and how you do really need frequent change intervals, with the first one at 10K then the next 30K later.


Good comments and I hope the following will convince you.

Today's ATF fluid blends such as Dex VI and other LV ATF's are much better than the older Dexron/Mercon fluids of yore due to the enhanced additive chemistry and improved base oils.

The newer additives offer enhanced dynamic friction retention, less viscosity shear, and improved oxidation resistance. But these fluids are NOT the holy grail.

My recommendation is only overkill against some manufactures recommended change intervals which attempts to "peanut butter" OCL's against long term, low mileage, and mild driving conditions.

My recommendations are NOT overkill for transmission longevity.

One thing not discussed is particulate loading.

Initial machining, assembly, and run-in traps and accumulates particulates which could cause a snowball effect in terms of wear, hence changing out early gets rid of a major amount of particulates due to this situation.

Later, composite clutch material particules and ferrous and aluminum metallic particles become dispersed which can cling to valving and actuator surfaces causing delayed shifts or "slams."

Periodically changing out the ATF and filter (if it has one) has these advantages:

1. replenishes the additive package which has degraded,
2. dilutes the particulate load which accumulate over time.

If the tranny has a filter, it cannot catch those very fine particles than get into piston interfaces and valving clearances.
 
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Thank you for the details. We agree that 100K between transmission fluid changes and "lifetime" transmission fluids are nonsense. We disagree on the millage intervals.

Again-thank you.
 
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I find it interesting how posters are trolling Mola. Since these posters have determined that Mola knows nothing, perhaps they can demonstrate their brilliance and fix Mrsandman's problems. I'm sure they can adequately demonstrate to Ford and whomever made the OEM transmission fluid that they were clearly at fault, despite expiration of warranty and involvement of another shop.

Mola is the only one who provided any concrete advice.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
I find it interesting how posters are trolling Mola. Since these posters have determined that Mola knows nothing, perhaps they can demonstrate their brilliance and fix Mrsandman's problems. I'm sure they can adequately demonstrate to Ford and whomever made the OEM transmission fluid that they were clearly at fault, despite expiration of warranty and involvement of another shop.

Mola is the only one who provided any concrete advice.


I've noticed Mola does this on a fairly regular basis. Let me try and think of something bad to write about him.....hmmm....I'm drawing a blank. Oh, no. I may have a man crush on Mola
smile.gif


Mola, keep up the great work!
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: philipp10
So it says "Iowegian" is your name. Do you live in Iowa? If so, I'd like to know who in Iowa is formulating anything beyond corn syrup...


Well, you have said some pretty ignorant things in other threads so I am not surprised you would pop in here and make similar ignorant remarks.


Well anytime you want to back up your comments with some real facts (like whom you work for) then I will understand where your coming from. I am not saying lubricant formulation is not happening in Iowa, but I would think Houston might be a more realistic place.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
I find it interesting how posters are trolling Mola. Since these posters have determined that Mola knows nothing, perhaps they can demonstrate their brilliance and fix Mrsandman's problems. I'm sure they can adequately demonstrate to Ford and whomever made the OEM transmission fluid that they were clearly at fault, despite expiration of warranty and involvement of another shop.

Mola is the only one who provided any concrete advice.


What Mola has stated could be typed by any layman. Its not rocket science to type comments about "particulate loading". Thats means nothing.
 
Then I suggest you get a little more familiar with what he's written before, here and elsewhere. There are others on this site who can independently confirm Mola's credentials, and several others who can confirm his education in the field.

Would you have rather had a jargon filled response and then criticize it as such?
 
I agree with Molakule on this. Most of the wear occurs in a transmission within the first 5,000-10,000 miles, it has been discussed here before. I for one want that [censored] out. Changing it every 30K miles thereafter seems like good sound advise, especially in my neck of the woods where stop and go traffic is the norm.

I want my transmission to last the life of the car. If I spend an extra few hundred dollars over the years doing it I think of it as money well spent.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I agree with Molakule on this. Most of the wear occurs in a transmission within the first 5,000-10,000 miles, it has been discussed here before. I for one want that [censored] out. Changing it every 30K miles thereafter seems like good sound advise, especially in my neck of the woods where stop and go traffic is the norm. I want my transmission to last the life of the car. If I spend an extra few hundred dollars over the years doing it I think of it as money well spent.
I would agree--especially where the transmission sees regular work such as towing. I pushed mine OCIs to 50K in my 2010 FX4, but I did dump the FF in it at 13,300. With all of the towing I did in it through the 160K miles of ownership (about 45% of the 160K) I never had so much as a blimp. I wonder if it had been the same if I had left the fluid in for 150K as Ford stated.

@Molakule - thanks for all of the information and knowledge that you have (and continue) to share on the site; it is very much appreciated.
 
I also agree with the early ATF change. We have countless threads discussing changing motor oil early, but with engines it will still be done within 10k miles for most of them even if someone doesn't subscribe to the early oil change regimen.

Transmission components are manufactured and machined much the same way and to the same standards as engines. They will have elevated levels of particulate matter caused by break in and manufacturing process. Why not get rid of it early? We do that with engines and it is logical to do the same with transmissions, differentials and transfer cases.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: philipp10
So it says "Iowegian" is your name. Do you live in Iowa? If so, I'd like to know who in Iowa is formulating anything beyond corn syrup...


Well, you have said some pretty ignorant things in other threads so I am not surprised you would pop in here and make similar ignorant remarks.


Well anytime you want to back up your comments with some real facts (like whom you work for) then I will understand where your coming from. I am not saying lubricant formulation is not happening in Iowa, but I would think Houston might be a more realistic place.


When it comes to lubricants I think that Mola has probably forgotton more than you will ever know. Wind your neck in.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Garak
I find it interesting how posters are trolling Mola. Since these posters have determined that Mola knows nothing, perhaps they can demonstrate their brilliance and fix Mrsandman's problems. I'm sure they can adequately demonstrate to Ford and whomever made the OEM transmission fluid that they were clearly at fault, despite expiration of warranty and involvement of another shop.

Mola is the only one who provided any concrete advice.


What Mola has stated could be typed by any layman. Its not rocket science to type comments about "particulate loading". Thats means nothing.


sorry Molekule, I must have been a a cranky mood last night. Things not well on the home front.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10


sorry Molekule, I must have been a a cranky mood last night. Things not well on the home front.


10 Laps and 50 Push-ups!

LOL
 
Couldn't a uoa show if the viscosity is out of range?

Obviously insolubles will be off the chart, but I'm not sure how that would affect the viscosity.

Reading the pqia reports on atf's seems to indicate that they aren't great at determining if the fluid is "right" but can tell if it is obviously wrong or out of spec.

Many independent shops use a bulk multi vehicle fluid, and then augment it with an supplemental"add pack" which claims to bring other fluids into spec.

I may be all wrong, but that would be my approach.
 
My uniformed guess would be that almost any trans fluid a reputable shop could put into a healthy Explorer trans, wouldn't cause a rapid failure without some serious warning signs.
The OP hasn't said how long the fluid was in there though, so if it was 30k miles ago then having the wrong fluid in there could cause slower but cumulative damage I'd think.
 
I would assume that many BITOG members would agree with changing the transmission fluid out very early....there is a lot of "over maintenance" going on here.

Like I said...I changed my Dex 6 out at 50,000 miles and it visually looked good.....and 25,000 miles of that was towing my 5,500 pound travel trailer.
 
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Originally Posted By: philipp10
... I am not saying lubricant formulation is not happening in Iowa, but I would think Houston might be a more realistic place.


Just for general info and for new members joining us, I am an Independent Lubricant Consultant, who independently formulates automotive and specialty lubricants, and an Adjunct Prof of Physics and Chemistry. I am also an avowed gearhead (guilty as charged) who has actually torn down engines and transmissions.

I receive no compensation from BITOG or any other site, because I want to stay totally independent and voice my own opinions and present data from my knowledge of actual formulations, short of disclosing any proprietary information.

You don't have to be located in Houston or NJ or Brussels or London to be an Independent Lubricant Consultant and formulator.
smile.gif
 
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Couldn't a uoa show if the viscosity is out of range?

Obviously insolubles will be off the chart, but I'm not sure how that would affect the viscosity.

Reading the pqia reports on atf's seems to indicate that they aren't great at determining if the fluid is "right" but can tell if it is obviously wrong or out of spec.


Consider this in terms of viscosity:

Initially ATF shears to a lower viscosity, then thickens as it oxidizes, then shears again, then oxidizes even more.

The reason I stated that a detailed analysis would be expensive is that each ATF fluid type has a unique "spectral signature" when subjected to analysis by various analytical techniques.

If there is any fluid left, one would need a minimum of 10 ounces or 300 milliLiters for this battery of tests.

It can be done and I have done it for litigation as an EW.
 
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