Oil's affect on motorcycle gear shift feel?

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
It's definitely a function of viscosity. In the mornings, the zx14r is almost notch less before warming up. On the other hand, it's a strong notchy feeling when the motor is hot, like after idling at a stop light in 95 degree heat, which is common here in Florida.
In Fla it's not the heat it is the humidity

I Had to do it.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Engines stay cooler in high humidity

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Some interesting information right there. You have any idea what HTHS is for Mobil 1 Racing 4T?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
Some interesting information right there. You have any idea what HTHS is for Mobil 1 Racing 4T?


I try to help...but...

According to this
http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0016/3287/A_Study_of_Motorcycle_Oils.pdf

the 4T was measured at 4.1.

That's close to what a 15W40 is likely to show, and 0.3 to 0.5 higher than a typical passenger car 10W40 would show.

If you look at the Amsoil doc I linked, there's a "rule of thumb" that the percentage HTHS loss from new is pretty close to 50% of the percentage loss of KV100.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Well why on Earth would JAMA have identified issues with HTHS oils below 3.1 if viscosity had nothing to do with it ?


JAMA identified issues in the Lab at extreme temps of 150ºC /302ºF but in the real world our
gear boxes oil don't run at 302ºF... we see continuous temps in 220º range and at that
coolant temp our oil viscosity is not in danger of dropping below 3.1...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Well why on Earth would JAMA have identified issues with HTHS oils below 3.1 if viscosity had nothing to do with it ?


JAMA identified issues in the Lab at extreme temps of 150ºC /302ºF but in the real world our
gear boxes oil don't run at 302ºF... we see continuous temps in 220º range and at that
coolant temp our oil viscosity is not in danger of dropping below 3.1...


NO...NO....NO

Where on Earth did you get the idea that they were testing the gearboxes at 150C ?

Another made up BLS "fact" ?

HTHS is a measurement that's taken at 150C. Not the temperature that they tested the boxes at. The boxes were tested, and OILS that had the HTHS
BTW, dynamic viscosity and kinematic are not the same measurement...before you trip over that one.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Good stuff Mr. Shannow.

Besides the HTHS measurement, are there other observable physical properties that can be used to estimate/predict HTHS?

 

[Shannow]

digitalSniperX1,

If you look for
* a low viscosity index
* a high density/SG
* a high flash point
* and an MRV viscosity that is about double the CCS viscosity

You will have about the maximum HTHS for the type of oil.

I'll cherry pick a couple of examples for effect.

Take the Citgo 500 monograde minerals.

http://www.technologylubricants.com/MSDS/CITGO/PDS/C500 single visc_pds.pdf

Look at the 20W20, it's a monograde...it's a mineral...and has an HTHS of 2.9Cp...has a 457F flash point..It is only 9.0cst at 100C (making it a 20 grade)

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-30.aspx

It's a highish Viscosity Index multigrade, but in spite of being a "30" only has an HTHS of 3.0...iit has a gravity flow (sorry, Kniemtic viscosity oat 100C) of 10.9, but it's flashpoint, in spite of being a synthetic is 438...

That's indicative of an oil that has very light, albeit synthetic base-stocks, and a load of polymeric viscosity index improvers...which gearboxes chew up.

The Citgo 20W20 will keep it's HTHS in service, as it's got no polymers to shear, while the M1 0W30 will lose 0.5% of it's HTHS for every percent it loses in KV100.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

I'm looking at Redline oils, and there may be better in this regard, but their numbers indicate wide viscosity ranges with high HTHS measurements. I'm thinking you probably have a high regard for their products (price notwithstanding). Am I correct?

For example their 0w40 has a viscosity index of 190 and an HTHS of 4.0. Their 0w20 VI is 172 and HTHS is 2.9.

(I forgot to thank you for sharing your knowledge. The last post, like many, was most informative. If applied correctly by the reader, one can make some sound assumpumptions on a given oil's components).

 

[serious_black]

That's petty much what I was thinking when I chose the 10w60. Thanks for the info. I now have to digest it. I can get a 25w50 racing oil (Statoil raceway HP 25W50). This has no VI improvers and would probably be fine if I only rode in the summer. They don't recommend it for road use. That won't shear in a hurry.

 

[Robenstein]

Most of the racing oils that are not recommended for road use are low in detergents and are not meant to be in use very long (race weekend). It would be prudent to get a look at the additive package before using in a street machine. For instance Valvoline here in the USA has VR1 (syn and conventional), but they also have the NSR (Not Street Legal) line. The first line is okay for road use, the second, is track oil only and would be bad to use for any length of time given the unbalanced additive package.

 

[serious_black]

Which is another reason I rejected it although I did think of chucking a bottle in the mix for curiosities sake. Might do that on the next oil change.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
I'm thinking you probably have a high regard for their products (price notwithstanding). Am I correct?

For example their 0w40 has a viscosity index of 190 and an HTHS of 4.0. Their 0w20 VI is 172 and HTHS is 2.9.


I like Redline, but they are very very expansive in Australia...that being said, I use their diff oils a lot.

If you look at their 0W40, it's got a KV100 of 15.4, for it's HTHS of 4.0, which is high for a 0W40, but M1 is still around 3.8 ish....NOACK, the volatility is 9%, which while extremely good shows lower basestock viscosity and Viscosity Index Improvers.

There's still considerable scope for shear.

Their 10W40 is KV100 15.1, HTHS 4.4, and volatility 6...I'd use that in a bike over the 0W40.

You only really need the 0W over the 10W at temperatures like 0F, and probably colder.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: serious_black
I can get a 25w50 racing oil (Statoil raceway HP 25W50). This has no VI improvers and would probably be fine if I only rode in the summer.


I had a jug of edge 25W50 in the shed to go im my Caprice (L67 supercharged 6)...until I found out the HTHS was 6.1...double what the ILSAC 5W30s are.

It was clearly too heavy, and I took it back and swapped for an A3/B4 5W30 with an HTHS of 3.6.

I wouldn't use an HTHS of 6.1 in a bike.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Most of the racing oils that are not recommended for road use are low in detergents and are not meant to be in use very long (race weekend). It would be prudent to get a look at the additive package before using in a street machine. For instance Valvoline here in the USA has VR1 (syn and conventional), but they also have the NSR (Not Street Legal) line. The first line is okay for road use, the second, is track oil only and would be bad to use for any length of time given the unbalanced additive package.



Its due to the add pack and low TBN? I thought it was tied with high ZDDP levels and issues with catalytic convertors, at least VR1. I don't understand why racing oil would have low additives levels... why, just so they have to change it every race?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


NO...NO....NO


you spelled YES wrong...

QUOTE
"Past development work on a pitting test was done using a machine
designed for the standard FZG gear wear test. However, there was a
lack of repeatability from lab to lab and the test cost was too high,
USD900, per gear set The industry, therefore, is attempting to devise
a suitable alternate test."

Originally Posted By: Shannow

The boxes were tested, and OILS that had the HTHS


Not so fast Professor I found no mention of 3.1
Quote
"SAE 5W-30 oils with an HlHS viscosity of2.7-2.9 caused gear pitting during the tests."


Originally Posted By: Shannow

BTW, dynamic viscosity and kinematic are not the same measurement...before you trip over that one.


True...

 

[Shannow]

BLS, I'm going to type very very slowly, just so you can keep up.

If you start with an ILSAC grade 0W30 (3.0-3.1 HTHS) with very high VII treat rate, of what are typically more unstable polymers (the polymers used in ILSAC grades are vastly less shear stable than tose in the HDMOs, Motorcycle oils etc)...where does the HTHS end up ?

That's why I disagree with your oil advice, these oils are economy oils.

You are in a starting position that is the wrong oil, the wrong TYPE of oil and additive package, and are telling everyone to use it.


BTW, you stated that the gearboxes were tested at 150C...thus my "NO"...which you corrected to "YES"...

Back that statement up please.

Also, I was responding to your viscosity doesn't protect gears, additves do...do you agree that it's viscosity, i.e. HTHS now ?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: serious_black
That's petty much what I was thinking when I chose the 10w60. Thanks for the info. I now have to digest it. I can get a 25w50 racing oil (Statoil raceway HP 25W50). This has no VI improvers and would probably be fine if I only rode in the summer. They don't recommend it for road use. That won't shear in a hurry.


Really timely (from the point of discussion) Used Oil Analysis just turned up here, on Gulf Western "fully synthetic" 10W60 in a ktm 690.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...10w#Post3928703

Aside from being my least favourite oil brand in Australia, here's what I observed.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I have seen absolutely nothing that impresses me about Gulf Western.

But this one takes the cake.

KV100 is listed on the PDS as >21.9...that's thick.
Your used KV100 is 14.3

KV40 is listed as 130
Yours is 91.1 used.

VI is listed as >170.
Yours is 163...to quote a proponent "at least it maintained it's viscosity index"

Re their PDS
http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Gulf-1-10W-60-SN-1-2014.pdf
TBN is pretty woeful to begine with.
Flash point and density would indicate an oil that's pushed to a grade through VII addition.
P would indicate that it's an additive pack and treat rate probably that would meet an ILSAC standard.
It's "formulated with PAO"...


Ditch the Gulf Western...Mobil 4t, V-Twin depending on how thick you want to go.


The wear metals are all OK, but the oil was cut to shreds.

More shear stable polymers, and he could run a 40 and have had similar results.

Chopped up polymers are also sludge precursors.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Most of the racing oils that are not recommended for road use are low in detergents and are not meant to be in use very long (race weekend). It would be prudent to get a look at the additive package before using in a street machine. For instance Valvoline here in the USA has VR1 (syn and conventional), but they also have the NSR (Not Street Legal) line. The first line is okay for road use, the second, is track oil only and would be bad to use for any length of time given the unbalanced additive package.



Its due to the add pack and low TBN? I thought it was tied with high ZDDP levels and issues with catalytic convertors, at least VR1. I don't understand why racing oil would have low additives levels... why, just so they have to change it every race?



Here in the USA there are plenty of performance vehicles on the road that do not have catalytic converters. Pre 1975 they were not required on cars. If you check the racing oils, some, but not all do not have the detergent and disperse packages adequate to be left in the engine for a long oci. Instead they are geared towards handling wear from things like really radical cam profiles (flat tappet) and extreme valve spring pressures. Not all racing oils are created equal. I am not familiar with the oil you listed, but it would be wise to have a look at its data sheet or get a VOA run down of it to make sure it would keep your engine happy for the entire oci.

 

[Silk]

As far as motorcycle shift feel goes, I've only used one oil that showed a marked difference....like riding a new bike. My 1992 XT600 was always notchy no matter what oil was used, but when I put in some Gulf Western Top Dog 15-40 it shifted sweet as.