Seattle...a family city?!

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Why do states with lots of hippies crave into the demands of idiots ?


Well, half of my state (or more) wants nothing to do with hippies. Much of the western half (especially Seattle by far), not only embraces that culture....they are the ones in power. Twenty plus years ago most of them were running around barefoot and not bathing...now they are involved in local governments.
Go figure.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Legalize heroin? ... wow, I doubt that will ever happen. Might as legalize PCP, Meth and LSD too.


Well, some folks think that all of that should be legal and up to the individual. I am not one.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
I think it's presumptuous that social planners who open "shooting gallery" sites think that they'll resolve this issue by x degree in doing this..


It's not really "presumptuous" when all the available information demonstrates that it's more effective from a public health and safety standpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervised_injection_site#Evaluations

I see a lot of complaining about it, not much in the way of constructive ideas. Draconian policing of drug use and offenses simply doesn't work. Anyone who believes otherwise simply has his or her head in the sand and just acting from an emotional perspective, not a rational one.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
I think it's presumptuous that social planners who open "shooting gallery" sites think that they'll resolve this issue by x degree in doing this..


It's not really "presumptuous" when all the available information demonstrates that it's more effective from a public health and safety standpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervised_injection_site#Evaluations

I see a lot of complaining about it, not much in the way of constructive ideas. Draconian policing of drug use and offenses simply doesn't work. Anyone who believes otherwise simply has his or her head in the sand and just acting from an emotional perspective, not a rational one.


But I think somebody might have the cranium up something else if they think that providing a place to shoot-up out in public (such as a public park) AND providing needles....is a rational solution.

I guess we will agree to disagree, as the saying goes.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
[
Don't presume to tell me that only you can determine what his near my home.

I work in Seattle daily. I also have business in the city on many weekends as well as the desire to enjoy the waterfront, Seattle Center, Green Lake, and the Westlake Mall. It IS near my home. You might think that a 25 minute drive isn't "near"...but I guess that is your perogitive.

Yes...you and many others that live in the city have continued to vote for and support such ideas put forth by others with your mind set. Unfortunately, when you people makes such idiotic decisions...including the many other crazy ones Seattle is known for....it doesn't just stay within the city limits. What Seattle does...the county eventually does. You guys are like a cancer of ridiculous fees, taxes, laws, and lifestyles that eventually spreads.

Seattle has become a joke in the state. You know this as do all the residents. It's become the poster-city as to how NOT to run a city. Get over it and stop denying reality. Seattle hasn't been an "Emerald City" for about 30 years or more.
I ought to know...I've been commuting, working, and visiting the city since 1970.

You and others like to appease what you can't combat. You give in....just like the heroin problem. Instead of coming up with real solutions that generally involve a multi-pronged, tough road of prevention, law enforcement, and cultural change.....you do the typical weak, thoughtless approach of appeasement and basically throw the towel in....with needles included.

I'm not the one "pretending". This entire idea that Seattle has is pretending.


Your disjointed rant has a lot of anger. I understand the genesis of it based on prior posts--but that fact remains--this IS my home. I live in this neighborhood. I don't want my dog stepping on needles (I tend to wear shoes when I'm out of the house). People are going to shoot up. I'm sorry that upsets you, but that's reality. Giving them a localized place has a lot of upsides, and not much in the way of downsides. You can call it "giving up", I call it being logical.

As far as the rest of your rant about Seattle and liberals destroying the city--well, aside from that tunnel monstrosity (which was pushed on us by the state and big developers, and certainly not supported by people that actually live in the city) I'm not really sure what you're talking about. The city seems to be thriving to me and most others who live here. Given the state of housing values, people obviously want to live hear, regardless of what you think of the place. I realize you seem to view it as a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah, but I think it's a great city.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: andrewg

But I think somebody might have the cranium up something else if they think that providing a place to shoot-up out in public (such as a public park) AND providing needles....is a rational solution.


Where do these two things keep coming from: "in public" and "public park"?

You seem to be the only person making the association between a "safe place" and "public park". A "safe place" is going to be at a specific,indoor, location, not next to the playscape at the park, and I would imagine it would be "public" in much the same way a homeless shelter is public. That is, only people seeking their services visit.

Unless, of course, taking the family to a picnic at a "public" homeless shelter is your idea of a nice Sunday afternoon.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: andrewg
[
Don't presume to tell me that only you can determine what his near my home.

I work in Seattle daily. I also have business in the city on many weekends as well as the desire to enjoy the waterfront, Seattle Center, Green Lake, and the Westlake Mall. It IS near my home. You might think that a 25 minute drive isn't "near"...but I guess that is your perogitive.

Yes...you and many others that live in the city have continued to vote for and support such ideas put forth by others with your mind set. Unfortunately, when you people makes such idiotic decisions...including the many other crazy ones Seattle is known for....it doesn't just stay within the city limits. What Seattle does...the county eventually does. You guys are like a cancer of ridiculous fees, taxes, laws, and lifestyles that eventually spreads.

Seattle has become a joke in the state. You know this as do all the residents. It's become the poster-city as to how NOT to run a city. Get over it and stop denying reality. Seattle hasn't been an "Emerald City" for about 30 years or more.
I ought to know...I've been commuting, working, and visiting the city since 1970.

You and others like to appease what you can't combat. You give in....just like the heroin problem. Instead of coming up with real solutions that generally involve a multi-pronged, tough road of prevention, law enforcement, and cultural change.....you do the typical weak, thoughtless approach of appeasement and basically throw the towel in....with needles included.

I'm not the one "pretending". This entire idea that Seattle has is pretending.


Your disjointed rant has a lot of anger. I understand the genesis of it based on prior posts--but that fact remains--this IS my home. I live in this neighborhood. I don't want my dog stepping on needles (I tend to wear shoes when I'm out of the house). People are going to shoot up. I'm sorry that upsets you, but that's reality. Giving them a localized place has a lot of upsides, and not much in the way of downsides. You can call it "giving up", I call it being logical.

As far as the rest of your rant about Seattle and liberals destroying the city--well, aside from that tunnel monstrosity (which was pushed on us by the state and big developers, and certainly not supported by people that actually live in the city) I'm not really sure what you're talking about. The city seems to be thriving to me and most others who live here. Given the state of housing values, people obviously want to live hear, regardless of what you think of the place. I realize you seem to view it as a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah, but I think it's a great city.


If you don't see Seattle the same way I and many other state residents do...then that's quite alright and your opinion. As you say, it IS your neighborhood and you live there....not me. You seem fine with the decisions made in this city (other than the tunnel apparently)..and ok with all odor of fecal material and urine in much of the city caused by Seattle being a favorite destination for bums...due to handouts.. You are also fine with the extremely high real estate, the over burdensome taxes, the complete disregard for automobile traffic in favor of little used bicycle lanes (paid for
by you). That's all fine for you. I get that. But I didn't mention anything political as you just did, did I?

Sodom and Gomorrah? Why the silly biblical reference? Do I think Seattle is a nice place to take the kids and family? Not so much anymore. It's filthy. You know it, but in my opinion won't say it. On a recent trip downtown with my girlfriend, we were accosted three times by stinky bums bothering us for money. It scared the heck out of her as these scum looked like they were about to get violent from not giving them money (as you very well know DOES happen in your idolized utopia). Not only that...but as we were about to go inside Macy's...we found that we needed to step over a pile of human waste in the entrance way!! Yep...real nice city. Ran by idiots...inhabited by bums.

I would suggest that if you want your dog to have a nice life, able to walk around and play in grass free of needles, human waste, and broken booze bottles...you move to the suburbs.

 

[andrewg]

MrHorspwer, wherever this type of "solution" has been tried it has involved taking up a public park, space, or otherwise open area near the public.
Regardless of where this is done...without locking up these disgusting addicts and confining them...the actions of appeasement will spill over into the street. The police will not touch it out of fear of being accused of some horrible crime. Addicts will feel free to walk around these drug shoot-up spots as high as a kite...while vomitting here and there for all to enjoy.

But of course, I'm sure you are right. It will be more like a nice Holiday Inn.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
My main point is that I'm just trying to get some of you to agree that alcohol is not equivalent to heroin. It's extremely addictive and detrimental in the extreme.


In what way "harmful to the extreme"...that's what your linked (inflamatory article) states, but is it the truth ?

I've been trained in doing drug and alcohol tests on my peers and workers...Oz has random roadside testing, and many workplaces have random D and A testing.

Heroin is one drug that judges and lawyers use due to the actual LACK of harm that it does to them...clean heroin (they can pay for it), clean fix kit, and they go on their normal high functioning existence.

Yes, they have a problem, and are doing something illegal, but it's not causing the issues that you describe.

The typical "junkie" isn't buying clean heroin, isn't using a clean fix kit, and may well be prostituting, breaking and entering to maintain their supply of stuff....their condition isn't heroin per se the chemical compound, it's the environment in which they do it.

Originally Posted By: andrewg
But I think somebody might have the cranium up something else if they think that providing a place to shoot-up out in public (such as a public park) AND providing needles....is a rational solution.


It's a rational solution to the problems that you are ascribing to the chemical compound heroin...

Clean fix, nurse and a defib, counsellors and chaplains...providing education (even as simple as teaching using bleach to sterilise needles if in a group situation help).

Minimises the harm and disease aspect as much as possible, and the presence of the "clinics" gives those who want to change the opportunity to peek through the door and open it.

Simple linear thinking isn't going to fix the problem.

Minimising harm is certainly in the public best interest.

 

[Shannow]

andrewg,
please take the time to read what HAS happened with these facilities, in a suburb where your chances of stepping on an infected syringe once were quite high.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion...b300e262b0a96e7

This is what happened, rather then making strawman comments about pepele going out and vomiting in the streets...

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: qwerty1234

To be clear...I am no friend to drunks either. Being an alcoholic is about on the same level as a heroin addict in my book. But to say that heroin, and it's obvious level of addiction and impacts on ones health is the same as alcohol, is something I won't agree with.

I agree. At my local AA meeting we get drug addicts once in a while. IMO, the cost of heroin/cocaine make the hard stuff so terrible. I've heard people with up to $200 a day dope habits. One could not possibly drink $200 a day of booze without passing out.


Seriously?! $200 really isn't that much liquor.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: andrewg
My main point is that I'm just trying to get some of you to agree that alcohol is not equivalent to heroin. It's extremely addictive and detrimental in the extreme. That is why it appears to be difficult for some folks to answer the question on if it should be sold at a grocery store look beer....since the constant (and incorrect) argument is brought up that hard drugs are no worse than alcohol.

To be clear...I am no friend to drunks either. Being an alcoholic is about on the same level as a heroin addict in my book. But to say that heroin, and it's obvious level of addiction and impacts on ones health is the same as alcohol, is something I won't agree with.

The problems with booze are bad enough...I don't want to see us culturally/legally accept heroin use in the same way.


I agree with you Andrew. I imagine this. I meet this hot chick,she invites me over. She lets me in and says,"Hey would you like a beer or a glass of wine before dinner?". Next expamle. She pulls out some needles and asks,"Hey would you like some herion or some coke before we eat?".

I think I'd prefer the beer or wine chick.


Wouldn't care, honestly...since I partake of none of those.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Legalize heroin? ... wow, I doubt that will ever happen. Might as well legalize PCP, Meth and LSD too while they are at it (sarcasm of course).


Actually, meth was LEGAL not too long ago!

 

[Olas]

Prohibition has been historically proven to be 100% effective, and the black market never finds a way to make a quick buck.

Regulation taxation and education are all terrible ideas.

Did God put seed-bearing plants on earth for man to use?

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
andrewg,
please take the time to read what HAS happened with these facilities, in a suburb where your chances of stepping on an infected syringe once were quite high.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion...b300e262b0a96e7

This is what happened, rather then making strawman comments about pepele going out and vomiting in the streets...




Thanks....I'll take a look when I can.

Strawman comments? To be frank about it...I've seen plenty of vomit from junkies and bums in Seattle. Unless we have a huge vomiting dog issue in the city and they like to eat something that looks like pork 'n beans??

So now are you going to tell me that junkies aren't prone to puking? Boy....do I have a lot to learn then. All this time I could have sworn it was junkie vomit.

 

[dishdude]

Now I've only visited Seattle, but I can't say I recall seeing a ton of homeless people. I certainly didn't encounter any vomit or feces. Now maybe I was in the touristy areas like Downtown, Pike Place, around the Space Needle. Seemed like a nice area, except for all the traffic and congestion.

 

[Shannow]

Yes, one of my less memorable experiences in my gap year was cleaning the gas station toilets.

One Monday, the sink was clogged with puke, the closed toilet lid was covered with semen and used prophylactics, and there was a syringe and burned foil in the urinal.

Doesn't make the scenario that you've stated as a future fact an actual fact...that occurs in the future.

Smile...they'll puke in the medically controlled environment of the injecting room...that's gotta be good doesn't it ?

If you are currently wading knee deep in vomit, then what is being done now clearly isn't working.

Like a business running coin dispensers...insert a buck, get out 4 quarters...looks at the balance sheet and complains that he's not making very much money...so installs a whole lot more machines.

Will doing more of what's not working now make it better ?

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
Now I've only visited Seattle, but I can't say I recall seeing a ton of homeless people. I certainly didn't encounter any vomit or feces. Now maybe I was in the touristy areas like Downtown, Pike Place, around the Space Needle. Seemed like a nice area, except for all the traffic and congestion.


I could go downtown this coming holiday weekend and take my camera. I could easily get tons of photos showing what has happened to a once beautiful city. Maybe I will.....but it does have risks as some of these bums get violent....not like the old days.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
....but it does have risks as some of these bums get violent....not like the old days.

At least it is a "shall issue" state.

 

[Oregoonian]

The city seems to be thriving to me and most others who live here. Given the state of housing values, people obviously want to live hear, regardless of what you think of the place. I realize you seem to view it as a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah, but I think it's a great city. [/quote]


IMO.....The 'Emerald City'.....has lost its luster. Without Microsoft and Boeing (who pulled out its headquarters years ago)....Seattle would be another Detroit. With is liberal government policies, disaster is just around the corner propergating all these stupid ideas.