Hydrogen Powered Colorado Pickup Truck

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Logistics are the most important thing in combat. You can have a wonderful division that's sitting around being useless thanks to the lack of fuel, food, clothing, etc, etc.


So anything that reduces energy consumption is a good thing.

Its great that the army has not forgotten that since we have not fought a real maneuver war in 60 years. Maybe supplying all those remote bases has brought this to light again.
 
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Isn't this exactly what TARDEC is supposed to be doing? Research and development for ground vehicles? I'd imagine that, just like every other player in ground transportation, increased efficiency and alternative propulsion are areas you'd like to pursue.

I know it's really fun to sit on the internet and armchair everything wrong with an idea, then lob shots at the White House, but if automakers are spending real dollars researching fuel cells and hydrogen, I would certainly expect the military to want to gain some experience in it too.
 
The biggest problems with hydrogen as a motor vehicle fuel have been, and will continue to be supply and on-vehicle storage, neither one of which will likely be solved any time soon. The unfavorable thermodynamics of hydrogen production are well known and we've discussed the issues here lots of times. Storage is equally a problem, even at (relatively) high compression the energy density is very low.

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Isn't this exactly what TARDEC is supposed to be doing? Research and development for ground vehicles? I'd imagine that, just like every other player in ground transportation, increased efficiency and alternative propulsion are areas you'd like to pursue.

I know it's really fun to sit on the internet and armchair everything wrong with an idea, then lob shots at the White House, but if automakers are spending real dollars researching fuel cells and hydrogen, I would certainly expect the military to want to gain some experience in it too.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The biggest problems with hydrogen as a motor vehicle fuel have been, and will continue to be supply and on-vehicle storage, neither one of which will likely be solved any time soon. The unfavorable thermodynamics of hydrogen production are well known and we've discussed the issues here lots of times. Storage is equally a problem, even at (relatively) high compression the energy density is very low.

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Isn't this exactly what TARDEC is supposed to be doing? Research and development for ground vehicles? I'd imagine that, just like every other player in ground transportation, increased efficiency and alternative propulsion are areas you'd like to pursue.

I know it's really fun to sit on the internet and armchair everything wrong with an idea, then lob shots at the White House, but if automakers are spending real dollars researching fuel cells and hydrogen, I would certainly expect the military to want to gain some experience in it too.


According to Toyota, their Fuel cell car will have a range up to 700km:

According to Toyota measurements based on the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's JC08 test cycle; measured by Toyota when refueling at a hydrogen station supplying hydrogen at a pressure of 70 MPa under the SAEe J2601 standard conditions (ambient temperature: 20° C, hydrogen tank pressure when fueled: 10 MPa). Differing amounts of hydrogen will be supplied to the tank if refueling is carried out at hydrogen stations with differing specifications, and the cruising range will therefore also differ accordingly. It is estimated that a cruising range of approximately 700 km can be achieved when fueled under the conditions above at new hydrogen stations scheduled to begin operation from FY2016. Possible cruising range may vary considerably due to usage conditions (weather, traffic congestion, etc.) and driving methods (quick starts, air conditioning, etc.).

From: http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
[/quote]

According to Toyota, their Fuel cell car will have a range up to 700km:

According to Toyota measurements based on the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's JC08 test cycle; measured by Toyota when refueling at a hydrogen station supplying hydrogen at a pressure of 70 MPa under the SAEe J2601 standard conditions (ambient temperature: 20° C, hydrogen tank pressure when fueled: 10 MPa). Differing amounts of hydrogen will be supplied to the tank if refueling is carried out at hydrogen stations with differing specifications, and the cruising range will therefore also differ accordingly. It is estimated that a cruising range of approximately 700 km can be achieved when fueled under the conditions above at new hydrogen stations scheduled to begin operation from FY2016. Possible cruising range may vary considerably due to usage conditions (weather, traffic congestion, etc.) and driving methods (quick starts, air conditioning, etc.).

From: http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/


The quantity of weasel words in that paragraph is staggering. Does anybody know what the Japanese JC08 test cycle involves?
70MPa = 10,000 psi. Does anybody know where to find a 10,000 psi Hydrogen filling station?
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Nate1979


According to Toyota, their Fuel cell car will have a range up to 700km:

According to Toyota measurements based on the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's JC08 test cycle; measured by Toyota when refueling at a hydrogen station supplying hydrogen at a pressure of 70 MPa under the SAEe J2601 standard conditions (ambient temperature: 20° C, hydrogen tank pressure when fueled: 10 MPa). Differing amounts of hydrogen will be supplied to the tank if refueling is carried out at hydrogen stations with differing specifications, and the cruising range will therefore also differ accordingly. It is estimated that a cruising range of approximately 700 km can be achieved when fueled under the conditions above at new hydrogen stations scheduled to begin operation from FY2016. Possible cruising range may vary considerably due to usage conditions (weather, traffic congestion, etc.) and driving methods (quick starts, air conditioning, etc.).

From: http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/


The quantity of weasel words in that paragraph is staggering. Does anybody know what the Japanese JC08 test cycle involves?
70MPa = 10,000 psi. Does anybody know where to find a 10,000 psi Hydrogen filling station?


Yes.

http://airliquideadvancedbusiness.com/en/notre-offre/filling-station.html

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota-p...ew-mirai-sedan/

http://globenewswire.com/news-release/20...ted-States.html
 
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
70MPa = 10,000 psi. Does anybody know where to find a 10,000 psi Hydrogen filling station?


It's also going to take a fair amount of energy just to compress the gas to that pressure.

But once again, what's the favorable thermodynamic cycle being used to produce the hydrogen? If it's from natural gas, why not use the methane directly?
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Nate1979


According to Toyota, their Fuel cell car will have a range up to 700km:

According to Toyota measurements based on the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's JC08 test cycle; measured by Toyota when refueling at a hydrogen station supplying hydrogen at a pressure of 70 MPa under the SAEe J2601 standard conditions (ambient temperature: 20° C, hydrogen tank pressure when fueled: 10 MPa). Differing amounts of hydrogen will be supplied to the tank if refueling is carried out at hydrogen stations with differing specifications, and the cruising range will therefore also differ accordingly. It is estimated that a cruising range of approximately 700 km can be achieved when fueled under the conditions above at new hydrogen stations scheduled to begin operation from FY2016. Possible cruising range may vary considerably due to usage conditions (weather, traffic congestion, etc.) and driving methods (quick starts, air conditioning, etc.).

From: http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/


The quantity of weasel words in that paragraph is staggering. Does anybody know what the Japanese JC08 test cycle involves?
70MPa = 10,000 psi. Does anybody know where to find a 10,000 psi Hydrogen filling station?


Yes.

http://airliquideadvancedbusiness.com/en/notre-offre/filling-station.html

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota-p...ew-mirai-sedan/

http://globenewswire.com/news-release/20...ted-States.html


Neat! Three references all about the same Air Liquide Hydrogen fueling stations located at 60 places around the world. I'm sure one is located near you!
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn

It's also going to take a fair amount of energy just to compress the gas to that pressure.

But once again, what's the favorable thermodynamic cycle being used to produce the hydrogen? If it's from natural gas, why not use the methane directly?


Where I work, we get the majority of our hydrogen feedstock as a byproduct from neighboring bleach and chlorine producing plants. We clean it up, compress the heck out of it and cool it to the point it's a liquid at near absolute zero.

The rest we produce onsite from (as you say), extracting it from natural gas.

The H2 processes alone consume about 30+ megawatts of electricity, plus the cost of feestock and natural gas are staggering.

We also had some small onsite pilot projects years back, for gas H2 refilling stations for fuel cell vehicles. They basically used water and electrolysis to 'produce' H2. Obviously the volume is extremely low, so the system would run and charge a receiver bank. Again, not all the cost effective.

Pretty much all the liquid H2 produced is used in industrial processes. We cant make it fast enough and it's been this way since 1980. Product is basically sold out years in advance.
 
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman


Neat! Three references all about the same Air Liquide Hydrogen fueling stations located at 60 places around the world. I'm sure one is located near you!


I couldn't find the original announcements but particularly Air Liquide partnered with Toyota so it is relevant to the Toyota information specifically. I work for them so I can't say more. However, I have seen these filling stations in person.
 
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