Methanol-free washer fluid?

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Make your own using isopropanol. It's cheap and widely available. Consumer Reports published a recipe for DIY glass cleaner a few decades ago and I use it in the sled as well.

Fill a gallon jug half full of water, then add:

16oz of isopropanol
1/2 tsp Dawn dish detergent
1/4 ammonia (or more for really dirty areas or where there are lots of bugs on the windshield)
1 Tblspn Jet Dry (my own addition. You can also add a cap of Photo-flo).

Top off to make a gallon.
What is the freezing point of this mixture?

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: akela
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
^^^^ Rubbing alcohol is denatured and has components that can make it toxic.

it's denaturated not my poisoning it, buy rather by adding small amounts of components that make it taste and smell extremely unpeasant.
In case of rubbing alcohol, it's denatonium (bitterer) and diethyl phtalate (bad odor).


Just looked at the ingredients of rubbing alcohol.

Active Ingredients Ethyl Alcohol70% Inactive Ingredients Acetone , Denatonium Benzoate , Methyl Isobutyl Ketone , Water

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: akela
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
^^^^ Rubbing alcohol is denatured and has components that can make it toxic.

it's denaturated not my poisoning it, buy rather by adding small amounts of components that make it taste and smell extremely unpeasant.
In case of rubbing alcohol, it's denatonium (bitterer) and diethyl phtalate (bad odor).
Just looked at the ingredients of rubbing alcohol.

Active Ingredients Ethyl Alcohol70% Inactive Ingredients Acetone , Denatonium Benzoate , Methyl Isobutyl Ketone , Water

Looking at the bottle.
Medical ingredients: Ethanol anhydrous 95% v/v
Non-medical ingredients: Denatonium Benzoate, Diethyl Phtalate, Camphor

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: akela
Nope. No methanol in the ingredients list. How could it possibly be there, it's medical product, and regulated as such.

I would ask a chemist or, better yet, a pharmacist to be certain. The university professor in organic had stated many years ago that there was always a touch of methanol used. That could have easily changed in the intervening years, but there is always something done to ensure that the ethanol isn't consumed as a beverage.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: akela

Looking at the bottle.
Medical ingredients: Ethanol anhydrous 95% v/v
Non-medical ingredients: Denatonium Benzoate, Diethyl Phtalate, Camphor



Is that rubbing alcohol? All I can find for rubbing alcohol is 70%.

 

[kschachn]

Like I mentioned there are lots of different SD alcohols, here is a list of the denaturants :

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/151-denaturants-authorized-denatured-spirits-19670823

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: meborder
Read the data sheets and you will find that most of them have ethylene or propylene glycol in them too.

I've never tried drinking it, but it does smell good.....


I'm not too worried about propylene glycol, the metabolites aren't especially toxic. Ethylene glycol isn't all that toxic in and of itself either, but it's what you metabolize it into that kills you.
Ahhhhh... propylene glycol can be purchased in an FDA approved food grade version and is used in ice cream making and eye drops, among other things. So, the FDA isn't worried much about it. Gallon cans of "grain alcohol" 190 proof can be purchased at liquor stores at a hefty price. What it does to new auto paint formulations is unknown to me.

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: akela
Nope. No methanol in the ingredients list. How could it possibly be there, it's medical product, and regulated as such.

I would ask a chemist or, better yet, a pharmacist to be certain. The university professor in organic had stated many years ago that there was always a touch of methanol used. That could have easily changed in the intervening years, but there is always something done to ensure that the ethanol isn't consumed as a beverage.

hmm. This is a medical product which is tested and certified to be safe for being applied on the skin in large quantities.
The ingredients are clearly listed on the bottle. I did some googling, and as far as I can see, the addition ingredients make it non-consumable by spoiling the smell and taste.

I don't know anything about the professor you've mentioned, and what exactly question was he answering... but do you really believe that anybody in the right mind would intentionally add a real poison to the medical product, just to prevent the possible abuse? That doesn't make sense.

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: akela

Looking at the bottle.
Medical ingredients: Ethanol anhydrous 95% v/v
Non-medical ingredients: Denatonium Benzoate, Diethyl Phtalate, Camphor
Is that rubbing alcohol? All I can find for rubbing alcohol is 70%.

Yes, that's rubbing alcohol. I have no idea what difference does 70 vs 95% make for the massage, and why the more concentrated version is not available at certain locations.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: akela
I don't know anything about the professor you've mentioned, and what exactly question was he answering... but do you really believe that anybody in the right mind would intentionally add a real poison to the medical product, just to prevent the possible abuse? That doesn't make sense.

That was a lot of years ago, and it's clear that other denaturing products are legal. And yes, they were made clearly poisonous to prevent abuse, and marked as poisonous. Whether or not one likes it, it does make sense. And, it likely has changed due to the dangers involved in long term exposure, as in rubbing alcohol, rather than just the concern about an alcoholic abusing it and getting methanol poisoning.

The important part is, however, that you're not getting absolute ethanol, outside of a chemistry lab, or, unless you're paying full beverage alcohol tax on the volume purchased, which would be astronomical.

 

[kschachn]

And just to beat this horse a bit more deader, a denaturant does more than just make the EtOH "undesirable" or smell bad, it has to be something that can't easily be filtered or precipitated out, nor can it be removed by a simple distillation. Generally it has to make a relatively high concentration azeotrope so that it cannot be rendered safe to drink. Denaturants are added to make it permanently poisonous, not just undesirable.

BTW "rubbing alcohol" isn't supposed to be applied to large areas of the body despite the name. That's an old wives tail that comes from the idea that it could cool the body during a fever. Nobody should use it for that.

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: Garak
That was a lot of years ago, and it's clear that other denaturing products are legal. And yes, they were made clearly poisonous to prevent abuse, and marked as poisonous. Whether or not one likes it, it does make sense. And, it likely has changed due to the dangers involved in long term exposure, as in rubbing alcohol, rather than just the concern about an alcoholic abusing it and getting methanol poisoning.

I think the way how the product can be denaturated, depends on whether it's intended for medical or technical use. So there is no real contradiction here.

Originally Posted By: Garak
The important part is, however, that you're not getting absolute ethanol, outside of a chemistry lab, or, unless you're paying full beverage alcohol tax on the volume purchased, which would be astronomical.

Sure, and I don't need "absolute" ethanol. I just need a product that cleans the glass in the winter, and is safe enough, by my criteria. Concentrated medical rubbing alcohol seems to fit the bill.

Isopropanol (medical, rubbing) is also OK I guess. It's somewhat more toxic than ehtanol, but still not nearly as much as methyl alcohol.

 

[sleddriver]

Re: Freezing Point. Not sure. But where I live, it doesn't really matter.

 

[sleddriver]

Re: Ammonia level. Ooops. Start with 1/4cup. Increase if necessary.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: akela
Isopropanol (medical, rubbing) is also OK I guess. It's somewhat more toxic than ehtanol, but still not nearly as much as methyl alcohol.

I'm sure it will work. But, given how little exposure you'd have to your washer fluid, even if methanol, I wouldn't sweat it in the least. I used methanol washer fluid year round. I just don't sniff it or bathe in it or drink it, so I'm not worried.

Making your own concoction out of pharmaceutical grade stuff could be a bit expensive.

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: akela
Isopropanol (medical, rubbing) is also OK I guess. It's somewhat more toxic than ehtanol, but still not nearly as much as methyl alcohol.

I'm sure it will work. But, given how little exposure you'd have to your washer fluid, even if methanol, I wouldn't sweat it in the least. I used methanol washer fluid year round. I just don't sniff it or bathe in it or drink it, so I'm not worried.

Making your own concoction out of pharmaceutical grade stuff could be a bit expensive.

the exposure is still greater than for any other fluid that can be found in the car (including gasoline).

"my own concoction" costs about 1 CAD/liter, which is not far from the price of the methanol-based fluid.

 

[Kestas]

The ethanol I use in our lab is denatured and contains about 1% methanol. It's a house brand from Jade Scientific.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: akela
the exposure is still greater than for any other fluid that can be found in the car (including gasoline).

You certainly can formulate your own, but I would suggest the risk is minuscule. You're taking a lot bigger chance getting behind the wheel and dealing with the very real collision hazards all the time than you are by using methanol based washer fluid.

It's kind of like the pack a day smoker that told me he wouldn't live in a house near a transformer, due to the risk of cancer from electromagnetic radiation.

 

[racer12306]

3 page long thread about washer fluid????

Put blue stuff in, clean bird poop off your windshield.

Done.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: akela
the exposure is still greater than for any other fluid that can be found in the car (including gasoline).

You certainly can formulate your own, but I would suggest the risk is minuscule. You're taking a lot bigger chance getting behind the wheel and dealing with the very real collision hazards all the time than you are by using methanol based washer fluid.

It's kind of like the pack a day smoker that told me he wouldn't live in a house near a transformer, due to the risk of cancer from electromagnetic radiation.
Or a guy who rides his motor bike on the freeway without a helmet but avoids French fries.