05 f150 5.4 towing

[rodinator1234]

I have towed a lot with my 2005 F150 and always used M1 5w20. Some may say I have even pulled the guts out of it. I currently have 112k on it and I doesn't have any phaser rattle or anything abnormal. When towing it does use oil depending on how hard its ran. I have never seen oil temps above 212 on my Edge programmer and that was in west Texas in July pilling a 8k trailer. I did toast the transmission though at 109k, lost 3rd and 4th gear bands. I took really good care of the trans, had it flushed at 30k and changed the fluid and filter every 25k. But what I did do and in retrospect talking to the guy that rebuilt my trans was I locked out OD when I was towing like your supposed to (I thought)and he says that's what killed it. He said to leave it in drive and let the computer take care of it.

To add, even though I spent $1700 to have the trans replaced, and I did the spark plugs my self at 50k broke one had the tool to remove it replaced with Champion 1789's. Had the coolant system flushed at 100k at the dealer, brakes and tires and oil changes that's all. This has been the best truck I have ever owned, quite possibly the best vehicle I have ever owned. XLT 4 door 4x4 runs and drive like it did new with the mileage it has on it, looks great still and the interior has held up exceedingly well.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Soak_n_Fused
How often should I change this oil they say 15000 miles? I was thinking about 6000 miles that would be about twice a year for me so spring and fall. Also is my motorcraft filter good for this distance?
If you are running M1EP for only 6K, you need to seriously consider another oil like any quality conventional OR if you want to go to 15K, you should not do it blindly--you will need to run a UOA to see the health of the oil. Take a moment and look at the 21 UOAs from my 2010 F-150 and you will see that conventional oil (in this case Mobil Super 5000) performed equal to Pennzoil Ultra (IMHO). Your MC filter would be good for up to 10K (my Explorer's iOLM goes that far with no issues) and I ran a couple of MC FL-820s to 15K with no issues, but I would not do that now, I would use a FRAM Ultra due to the security of the wire-backed media. Good luck!

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
But what I did do and in retrospect talking to the guy that rebuilt my trans was I locked out OD when I was towing like your supposed to (I thought)and he says that's what killed it. He said to leave it in drive and let the computer take care of it.


There's absolutely no way that forcing the trans to stay in 3rd gear killed it. The reduced shifting in the hills almost certainly reduces wear, and if it doesn't normally lock the TC on a 4 - 3 downshift, then it'll also keep it cooler to lock out 4th gear when towing.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
But what I did do and in retrospect talking to the guy that rebuilt my trans was I locked out OD when I was towing like your supposed to (I thought)and he says that's what killed it. He said to leave it in drive and let the computer take care of it.


There's absolutely no way that forcing the trans to stay in 3rd gear killed it. The reduced shifting in the hills almost certainly reduces wear, and if it doesn't normally lock the TC on a 4 - 3 downshift, then it'll also keep it cooler to lock out 4th gear when towing.


+1 It sounds like a B_S story to me. Locking it out of OD is a good thing to do when towing.

 

[rodinator1234]

That's what I thought too, but what he said about the converter locking and unlocking when locked into 3rd is really hard on these transmissions, because it never truly locks. I never saw elevated temps on my tuner either I have my Edge dash mounted and never saw sustained temps over 180, it would spike to 185 or so on hard pulls and but never stayed there or overheated. And having it since new I know the history. Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course, had 2nd gear, reverse and first so it didn't really leave me stranded. There is a know issue with the design of the 3rd and 4th gear bands the new trans has new updated parts. Transmissions to Go in Arnold Mo did the trans and Greg there is know far and wide around here as the transmission guy for trucks and especially race cars, if it didn't come from a guy I know and trust I would have called [censored] too. I have now been towing in D and I have to say the trans does stay cooler I don't see temps above 170 ever. Could it be the new parts?? Who knows but I'll give his method a try.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
That's what I thought too, but what he said about the converter locking and unlocking when locked into 3rd is really hard on these transmissions, because it never truly locks. I never saw elevated temps on my tuner either I have my Edge dash mounted and never saw sustained temps over 180, it would spike to 185 or so on hard pulls and but never stayed there or overheated. And having it since new I know the history. Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course, had 2nd gear, reverse and first so it didn't really leave me stranded. There is a know issue with the design of the 3rd and 4th gear bands the new trans has new updated parts. Transmissions to Go in Arnold Mo did the trans and Greg there is know far and wide around here as the transmission guy for trucks and especially race cars, if it didn't come from a guy I know and trust I would have called [censored] too. I have now been towing in D and I have to say the trans does stay cooler I don't see temps above 170 ever. Could it be the new parts?? Who knows but I'll give his method a try.


Locked into third? Sounds like you have the 4R75troubleyou, rather than the later 6 speed box. If it indeed is the 4R, just being a a 4R75 is what killed your trans.

If a better torque converter with a touch lockup clutch and improved parts in general went in with your new trans, then that is what is most likely responsible for your superior trans temps.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course


At the end of the day, the problem is this: You're asking a stock, light-duty transmission that's intended to occasionally tow a boat/camper/utility trailer, to do so frequently.

Inevitably, as you've experienced, failure will result at low mileage.

 

[rodinator1234]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course


At the end of the day, the problem is this: You're asking a stock, light-duty transmission that's intended to occasionally tow a boat/camper/utility trailer, to do so frequently.

Inevitably, as you've experienced, failure will result at low mileage.


Yes absolutely understood that's why I did so much to try and preserve the longevity of the transmission. Most of it is a car trailer with a race car of some sort and tires and tools. And yes its a 4r75.. The 6r80 in my 14 Mustang GT is a much improved and superior transmission.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
That's what I thought too, but what he said about the converter locking and unlocking when locked into 3rd is really hard on these transmissions, because it never truly locks. I never saw elevated temps on my tuner either I have my Edge dash mounted and never saw sustained temps over 180, it would spike to 185 or so on hard pulls and but never stayed there or overheated. And having it since new I know the history. Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course, had 2nd gear, reverse and first so it didn't really leave me stranded. There is a know issue with the design of the 3rd and 4th gear bands the new trans has new updated parts. Transmissions to Go in Arnold Mo did the trans and Greg there is know far and wide around here as the transmission guy for trucks and especially race cars, if it didn't come from a guy I know and trust I would have called [censored] too. I have now been towing in D and I have to say the trans does stay cooler I don't see temps above 170 ever. Could it be the new parts?? Who knows but I'll give his method a try.


There is a lot of things wrong with what you have above.

First, the4r75e has only one band for the forward gears. The only time it is used is in 4th and manual second for engine braking.

If you lost 3rd and 4th you probably roasted the direct drive clutch, as that is the common link between those two gears. 1,2 and reverse would remain unaffected.

Second, locking and unlocking the torque converter in 3rd is far easier on this trans than a 4-3 downshift. To say that the torque converter is never fully Locked might be technically true, but is likewise misleading. There may be some converter slip, as that is normal in small amounts, but that remains a factor in any gear.

Also true, is that the torque converter clutch is applied with pulse width modulation (pwm) which allows the clutch to come on smoothly by letting it slip intentionally as it applies. But that is only the case for a few seconds (max) until then tcm commands a full lockup. Also worth noting is that all the shifts on the 4r75e are controlled by solenoids with pwm.

There is some carryover confusion from the AOD from which then later electronic versions were derived. The early AODs had a dual input shaft arrangement in which the torque input was split 65\45 between the two shafts in 3rd gear. This odd arrangement lead some to believe that it was partially locked up in 3rd. But this is not the case, because the inner shaft splined directly to the converter case. The only way for the input shaft to spin slower or faster than the engine is if the direct clutch was slipping ... Which would burn it out in mere seconds.

The big issue with the 3-4 shift is the synchronous nature of the shift itself, where to apply 4th, the OD band and intermediate clutch needs to apply within milliseconds of the direct clutch releasing. With electronic control, this is much less problematic, but back in the day, with hydraulic control it was much more likely to not be timed perfectly and would burn up one of the three clutches if done repeatedly.

With the 75e, I'm more comfortable locking out OD if it starts shifting often, just because of the nature of the shift schedule.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: rodinator1234


Yes absolutely understood that's why I did so much to try and preserve the longevity of the transmission. Most of it is a car trailer with a race car of some sort and tires and tools. And yes its a 4r75.. The 6r80 in my 14 Mustang GT is a much improved and superior transmission.


I beat the ever loving daylights out of my 6R80, and it has never given me an issue. This ZF engineered unit is far superior.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234


Yes absolutely understood that's why I did so much to try and preserve the longevity of the transmission. Most of it is a car trailer with a race car of some sort and tires and tools. And yes its a 4r75.. The 6r80 in my 14 Mustang GT is a much improved and superior transmission.


I beat the ever loving daylights out of my 6R80, and it has never given me an issue. This ZF engineered unit is far superior.
Same for me in old FX4. No problems.

 

[Soak_n_Fused]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Soak_n_Fused
How often should I change this oil they say 15000 miles? I was thinking about 6000 miles that would be about twice a year for me so spring and fall. Also is my motorcraft filter good for this distance?
If you are running M1EP for only 6K, you need to seriously consider another oil like any quality conventional OR if you want to go to 15K, you should not do it blindly--you will need to run a UOA to see the health of the oil. Take a moment and look at the 21 UOAs from my 2010 F-150 and you will see that conventional oil (in this case Mobil Super 5000) performed equal to Pennzoil Ultra (IMHO). Your MC filter would be good for up to 10K (my Explorer's iOLM goes that far with no issues) and I ran a couple of MC FL-820s to 15K with no issues, but I would not do that now, I would use a FRAM Ultra due to the security of the wire-backed media. Good luck!


WOW there is a lot of knowledge being tossed around on hear all that I can benefit from

I most definitely do need to do a UOA but my concern for changing oil in my vehicle at 6000 miles is purely seasonal and moisture related I make a lot of short trips only drive 4 minutes to work

Its even cheaper to it this way

if you figure from Wal-Mart a motocraft oil and filter is about 30 ish depending on area and tax but I only run that to about 3000 or 3500
then mobil 1 I can run to 6000 or 7000 with a mc filter for about 45 or 50$

also any input on oil filters I was thinking about pulling some apart and checking the drain back valves

 

[Soak_n_Fused]

Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
That's what I thought too, but what he said about the converter locking and unlocking when locked into 3rd is really hard on these transmissions, because it never truly locks. I never saw elevated temps on my tuner either I have my Edge dash mounted and never saw sustained temps over 180, it would spike to 185 or so on hard pulls and but never stayed there or overheated. And having it since new I know the history. Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course, had 2nd gear, reverse and first so it didn't really leave me stranded. There is a know issue with the design of the 3rd and 4th gear bands the new trans has new updated parts. Transmissions to Go in Arnold Mo did the trans and Greg there is know far and wide around here as the transmission guy for trucks and especially race cars, if it didn't come from a guy I know and trust I would have called [censored] too. I have now been towing in D and I have to say the trans does stay cooler I don't see temps above 170 ever. Could it be the new parts?? Who knows but I'll give his method a try.


There is a lot of things wrong with what you have above.

First, the4r75e has only one band for the forward gears. The only time it is used is in 4th and manual second for engine braking.

If you lost 3rd and 4th you probably roasted the direct drive clutch, as that is the common link between those two gears. 1,2 and reverse would remain unaffected.

Second, locking and unlocking the torque converter in 3rd is far easier on this trans than a 4-3 downshift. To say that the torque converter is never fully Locked might be technically true, but is likewise misleading. There may be some converter slip, as that is normal in small amounts, but that remains a factor in any gear.

Also true, is that the torque converter clutch is applied with pulse width modulation (pwm) which allows the clutch to come on smoothly by letting it slip intentionally as it applies. But that is only the case for a few seconds (max) until then tcm commands a full lockup. Also worth noting is that all the shifts on the 4r75e are controlled by solenoids with pwm.

There is some carryover confusion from the AOD from which then later electronic versions were derived. The early AODs had a dual input shaft arrangement in which the torque input was split 65\45 between the two shafts in 3rd gear. This odd arrangement lead some to believe that it was partially locked up in 3rd. But this is not the case, because the inner shaft splined directly to the converter case. The only way for the input shaft to spin slower or faster than the engine is if the direct clutch was slipping ... Which would burn it out in mere seconds.

The big issue with the 3-4 shift is the synchronous nature of the shift itself, where to apply 4th, the OD band and intermediate clutch needs to apply within milliseconds of the direct clutch releasing. With electronic control, this is much less problematic, but back in the day, with hydraulic control it was much more likely to not be timed perfectly and would burn up one of the three clutches if done repeatedly.

With the 75e, I'm more comfortable locking out OD if it starts shifting often, just because of the nature of the shift schedule.


+1 I always turn on tow haul and it rarely shifts

Are you guys all running motorcraft trans fluid?

 

[rodinator1234]

Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
That's what I thought too, but what he said about the converter locking and unlocking when locked into 3rd is really hard on these transmissions, because it never truly locks. I never saw elevated temps on my tuner either I have my Edge dash mounted and never saw sustained temps over 180, it would spike to 185 or so on hard pulls and but never stayed there or overheated. And having it since new I know the history. Trans went at 109k with a trailer on back of course, had 2nd gear, reverse and first so it didn't really leave me stranded. There is a know issue with the design of the 3rd and 4th gear bands the new trans has new updated parts. Transmissions to Go in Arnold Mo did the trans and Greg there is know far and wide around here as the transmission guy for trucks and especially race cars, if it didn't come from a guy I know and trust I would have called [censored] too. I have now been towing in D and I have to say the trans does stay cooler I don't see temps above 170 ever. Could it be the new parts?? Who knows but I'll give his method a try.


There is a lot of things wrong with what you have above.

First, the4r75e has only one band for the forward gears. The only time it is used is in 4th and manual second for engine braking.

If you lost 3rd and 4th you probably roasted the direct drive clutch, as that is the common link between those two gears. 1,2 and reverse would remain unaffected.

Second, locking and unlocking the torque converter in 3rd is far easier on this trans than a 4-3 downshift. To say that the torque converter is never fully Locked might be technically true, but is likewise misleading. There may be some converter slip, as that is normal in small amounts, but that remains a factor in any gear.

Also true, is that the torque converter clutch is applied with pulse width modulation (pwm) which allows the clutch to come on smoothly by letting it slip intentionally as it applies. But that is only the case for a few seconds (max) until then tcm commands a full lockup. Also worth noting is that all the shifts on the 4r75e are controlled by solenoids with pwm.

There is some carryover confusion from the AOD from which then later electronic versions were derived. The early AODs had a dual input shaft arrangement in which the torque input was split 65\45 between the two shafts in 3rd gear. This odd arrangement lead some to believe that it was partially locked up in 3rd. But this is not the case, because the inner shaft splined directly to the converter case. The only way for the input shaft to spin slower or faster than the engine is if the direct clutch was slipping ... Which would burn it out in mere seconds.

The big issue with the 3-4 shift is the synchronous nature of the shift itself, where to apply 4th, the OD band and intermediate clutch needs to apply within milliseconds of the direct clutch releasing. With electronic control, this is much less problematic, but back in the day, with hydraulic control it was much more likely to not be timed perfectly and would burn up one of the three clutches if done repeatedly.

With the 75e, I'm more comfortable locking out OD if it starts shifting often, just because of the nature of the shift schedule.


I didn't have it apart I just went by what he said. The new trans shifts nothing like the old one did, shifts are positive and firm and like I said the temps while towing are definatly reduced. I know the 4r75's do have issues and I was not upset about the trans going at the point it did. I have used and used the truck I have no complaints, and hopefully the trans last the rest of the life of the truck for me.

 

[DoubleWasp]

I'm using Motorcraft Mercon SP. I have yet to find a fault in this fluid under use (other than price), and fluid changes are infrequent enough.

 

[meborder]

SP is the specified fluid for the early 6r70

LV is the specified fluid for the later 6r80

V is the specified fluid for the 4r70/75

Some say LV and SP can be interchanged, but I wouldn't try it except as a last ditch effort to fix a problem.

And using LV or SP in place of V is asking for trouble, imo.

Also, anything specified to use Mercon, is now to use Mercon V. Ford discontinued Mercon and changed the formulation of mercon V so that it is backwards compatible (which was not the case when it came out.)

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Soak_n_Fused
I most definitely do need to do a UOA but my concern for changing oil in my vehicle at 6000 miles is purely seasonal and moisture related I make a lot of short trips only drive 4 minutes to work
It may be an issue, but then again it may not--only a UOA will tell you for sure. If cost is not an issue, then, of course, you are safe doing what you are, but it may be some waste there too.
Originally Posted By: Soak_n_Fused
also any input on oil filters I was thinking about pulling some apart and checking the drain back valves
For a 6 month 6K OCI, a Motorcraft filter should be your go to filter--silicone ADBV and a proven track record. If you decide to go past 10K, I would look at a FRAM Ultra:

Virgin FRAM Ultra XG2 Cut Open

FRAM Ultra XG2 with 15,109 Miles

FRAM Ultra XG2 with 17,475 Miles

Motorcraft FL-820s with 10,020 Miles

Motorcraft FL-820s with 15,372 Miles

There are also some FL-500s from my Explorer on here with 8-9K miles on them (just have to search in Google - "FL-500s 2015_PSD site:www.bobistheoilguy.com")

 

[Soak_n_Fused]

do you have a picture of that ADBV on that fram

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Soak_n_Fused
do you have a picture of that ADBV on that fram
Which one?