BMW 6MT - Which oil?

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oilnub

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Here's a curly one for you.

In my BMW 1M coupe, it uses a GS6-45BZ trans manufactured by ZF.

Redline recommend their D6 ATF in this trans.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=115&pcid=7

Discussions surrounding this vs the stock fluid on BMW forums tend to revolve around cold shifting smoothness and fluid viscosity. BMW owners also tend to be utterly petrified about departing from oils that come in BMW bottles. I simply want to use the best I can buy for this gearbox and don't care who makes it. I am also prepared to wait for the box to warm up before driving spiritedly and I l live in a climate which does not fall below 0*C.

What concerns me about using ATF in a manual trans is it's anti-wear add pack. I don't want 'smooth shifting and good synchronizer performance' while sacrificing wear of gear sliding surfaces and shaft bearings. Clearly I need a mixture of these characteristics, I want the box to last, and was leaning towards using Redline MTL until I used their vehicle configurator tool and read some forums where either stock BMW or Redline ATF is the majority.

Anyone want to weigh in on this? I'd love some opinions!
 
Ok, weird I cannot edit that post. I'll just add this here from Redline's manual trans lubes PDF found here http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Man Trans Lubes 10-13-1.pdf

Quote:
D4 ATF and High-Temp ATF provides the gear protection of a GL-4 gear oil in an automatic transmission fluid, which is far superior to a conventional ATF. This gear protection makes it perfect for lubricating automatic transaxles and high-performance automatic transmissions. The D4 ATF provides the best low-temperature shiftability. MTL® provides better wear protection in most manual transmissions which call for an ATF which can be very important in racing applications. MTL ® provides the low-temperature properties equivalent to a petroleum ATF. All Red Line transmission lubricants provide excellent synchronizer compatibility.


Seems they're saying MTL provides better wear protection than their ATF oils.
 
Looks like they're saying MTL. What are the specs of the BMW fluid? I'd go with the closest approximation as a guess but it'd be better to ring them and ask what they suggest
 
The specs of redline D4 ATF quite closely approximate stock fluid in terms of viscosity but I have no data in terms of additive pack. Almost everyone uses D4, redline's site says D6, and MTL is used by bmw engine and gearbox builders alike. I'm leaning towards the MTL myself.
 
A bit more digging on their site suggests D4 might be more suitable than D6 In that application

Quote:
Our most versatile ATF, use where Dexron III®, Dexron II®, Mercon® and Mercon V® fluids are recommended, provides a GL-4 level of gear protection
Popular applications: Toyota Type T-III and T-IV, Honda ATF-Z1, NissanMatic D, J & K, Diamond SP-II, SP-III, Mazda ATF M-V, most BMW, Audi, VW automatic transmissions
Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles like T-5, T-45, T-56 and late-model BMW
Excellent cold weather operation


And

Quote:
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil) 0W20
SAE Viscosity Grade (Gear Oil) 70W80
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 34
Viscosity Index 198
Pour Point, °C -60
Pour Point, °F -76
Brookfield Viscosity @ -40°C, Poise
 
Originally Posted By: oilnub
Here's a curly one for you.

In my BMW 1M coupe, it uses a GS6-45BZ trans manufactured by ZF.

Redline recommend their D6 ATF in this trans.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=115&pcid=7

Discussions surrounding this vs the stock fluid on BMW forums tend to revolve around cold shifting smoothness and fluid viscosity. BMW owners also tend to be utterly petrified about departing from oils that come in BMW bottles. I simply want to use the best I can buy for this gearbox and don't care who makes it. I am also prepared to wait for the box to warm up before driving spiritedly and I l live in a climate which does not fall below 0*C.

What concerns me about using ATF in a manual trans is it's anti-wear add pack. I don't want 'smooth shifting and good synchronizer performance' while sacrificing wear of gear sliding surfaces and shaft bearings. Clearly I need a mixture of these characteristics, I want the box to last, and was leaning towards using Redline MTL until I used their vehicle configurator tool and read some forums where either stock BMW or Redline ATF is the majority.

Anyone want to weigh in on this? I'd love some opinions!



Ok, weird I cannot edit that post. I'll just add this here from Redline's manual trans lubes PDF found here http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Man Trans Lubes 10-13-1.pdf
Seems they're saying MTL provides better wear protection than their ATF oils.



With appropriate AW additives built in, any GL5/GL4/MTF of higher KV@40*C and KV@100*C would offer higher level of wear protection on transmission gears and bearings over latest 'fuel economy' ATF of lower viscosities.

In your scenario, I wouldn't consider D6 ATF and D4 ATF for their low operating viscosity , instead would seriously consider higher operating viscosities from the following namely :

a )High Temp ATF GL4 ;

b )MTL GL4 ;

c )MT 85 GL4; or

d )MT 90 GL4.

However , shiftability 'maybe' an issue in cold climate . But your ambients would be on your side, and one thing is for sure, you get better wear protection for your gears and bearings I guess.
 
They don't recommend it themselves. Punch my car in and it says D6. Most use D4 but that said, redline themselves say MTL provides better wear protection, so it appears to be a choice between cold shift smoothness and wear protection. I'd like to hear from people who have used either fluid in a manual trans, would be great to see UOA data if possible
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: oilnub
Here's a curly one for you.

In my BMW 1M coupe, it uses a GS6-45BZ trans manufactured by ZF.

Redline recommend their D6 ATF in this trans.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=115&pcid=7

Discussions surrounding this vs the stock fluid on BMW forums tend to revolve around cold shifting smoothness and fluid viscosity. BMW owners also tend to be utterly petrified about departing from oils that come in BMW bottles. I simply want to use the best I can buy for this gearbox and don't care who makes it. I am also prepared to wait for the box to warm up before driving spiritedly and I l live in a climate which does not fall below 0*C.

What concerns me about using ATF in a manual trans is it's anti-wear add pack. I don't want 'smooth shifting and good synchronizer performance' while sacrificing wear of gear sliding surfaces and shaft bearings. Clearly I need a mixture of these characteristics, I want the box to last, and was leaning towards using Redline MTL until I used their vehicle configurator tool and read some forums where either stock BMW or Redline ATF is the majority.

Anyone want to weigh in on this? I'd love some opinions!



Ok, weird I cannot edit that post. I'll just add this here from Redline's manual trans lubes PDF found here http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Man Trans Lubes 10-13-1.pdf
Seems they're saying MTL provides better wear protection than their ATF oils.



With appropriate AW additives built in, any GL5/GL4/MTF of higher KV@40*C and KV@100*C would offer higher level of wear protection on transmission gears and bearings over latest 'fuel economy' ATF of lower viscosities.

In your scenario, I wouldn't consider D6 ATF and D4 ATF for their low operating viscosity , instead would seriously consider higher operating viscosities from the following namely :

a )High Temp ATF GL4 ;

b )MTL GL4 ;

c )MT 85 GL4; or

d )MT 90 GL4.

However , shiftability 'maybe' an issue in cold climate . But your ambients would be on your side, and one thing is for sure, you get better wear protection for your gears and bearings I guess.


I was thinking along the same lines!
 
My humble interpretations on your Redline quotations :

Originally Posted By: oilnub
D4 ATF and High-Temp ATF provides the gear protection of a GL-4 gear oil in an automatic transmission fluid, which is far superior to a conventional ATF. This gear protection makes it perfect for lubricating automatic transaxles and high-performance automatic transmissions.



This is in the context of automatic transmissions, not in the context of manual transmission as in your bimmer.



Originally Posted By: oilnub
The D4 ATF provides the best low-temperature shiftability. MTL® provides better wear protection in most manual transmissions which call for an ATF which can be very important in racing applications. MTL ® provides the low-temperature properties equivalent to a petroleum ATF. All Red Line transmission lubricants provide excellent synchronizer compatibility.



For better wear protection ,the use of MTL in manual transmission (whether or not call for ATF) in spirited driving or fun driving is important.Here,a manual transmission is actually found in your car.

Having said this, you don't quite need an MTL IF, most of the times, you cruise at fixed road speed and would touch 0 to 100 km/hr accelerations in say, ......... 30 or more seconds. ATF will do in this case.
 
 
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Is MTF-LT-5 or Pentosin FFL-3 the required fluid?

I wouldn't use ATF. I would use a 75w GL4 MT or DCT fluid.

Skip the ATF and use:
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=146&pcid=9

http://torcousa.com/torco_product/dct.html

http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/synchromax-manual-transmission-fluid/

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=4&=&id_products=374

https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.c...mission%20Fluid

BTW, nothing wrong with using the BMW, Porsche, ...OE fluids.




FFL-3 is the recommended fluid. See my post just above.

IMO the OP is over-estimating his intended use as it relates to the design parameters of the vehicle.
 
Last edited:
If I might add, I use both Redline MT90 (manual) in one car and their D4 in the other (auto equipped). I get a little queezy thinking of using the ATF in an MT. I would think that viscosity isn't the only discriminator for use in the two different transmissions. I have used the MT90 for 22 of the Nissan's 24 years through a lot of hard driving. Shiftability has never been an issue even at below zero F. but that doesn't mean anything to you as they are different trannys. However the long life of this one, which a known weak transmission design, suggests that the protection from the MT90 has been more than satisfactory. Good luck with that terrific new car of yours. Jealous here.
 
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Is MTF-LT-5 or Pentosin FFL-3 the required fluid?

I wouldn't use ATF. I would use a 75w GL4 MT or DCT fluid.

Skip the ATF and use:
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=146&pcid=9

http://torcousa.com/torco_product/dct.html

http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/synchromax-manual-transmission-fluid/

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=4&=&id_products=374

https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.c...mission%20Fluid

BTW, nothing wrong with using the BMW, Porsche, ...OE fluids.




Yes pentosin FFL-3 is the ZF suggested fluid. It's very hard to get here.

FFL-3 is sold via bmw as their LT5 fluid also through porche as their pdk fluid. Very interesting that the Redline DCTF ic marketed as a replacement for those 2 fluids but when it comes to the MT6 box in the 1M which also specs the FFL-3 fluid they suddenly suggest D6 ATF. Srems redline are off-base with their fluid recommendations.


No
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Is MTF-LT-5 or Pentosin FFL-3 the required fluid?

I wouldn't use ATF. I would use a 75w GL4 MT or DCT fluid.

Skip the ATF and use:
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=146&pcid=9

http://torcousa.com/torco_product/dct.html

http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/synchromax-manual-transmission-fluid/

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=4&=&id_products=374

https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.c...mission%20Fluid

BTW, nothing wrong with using the BMW, Porsche, ...OE fluids.




FFL-3 is the recommended fluid. See my post just above.

IMO the OP is over-estimating his intended use as it relates to the design parameters of the vehicle.


I daily drive the car but also do long drives in the hills with sustained periods of full throttle and drive on track a few times a year. I want to provide the trans with the best protection and also enjoy good shifting performance. If the FFL-3 is best, I'll use it. It's hard to get and is $50/L (I'll need to buy 3 for a oil change as it takes a little over 2L) but that's not a concern. Just want to use the best.


Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
If I might add, I use both Redline MT90 (manual) in one car and their D4 in the other (auto equipped). I get a little queezy thinking of using the ATF in an MT. I would think that viscosity isn't the only discriminator for use in the two different transmissions. I have used the MT90 for 22 of the Nissan's 24 years through a lot of hard driving. Shiftability has never been an issue even at below zero F. but that doesn't mean anything to you as they are different trannys. However the long life of this one, which a known weak transmission design, suggests that the protection from the MT90 has been more than satisfactory. Good luck with that terrific new car of yours. Jealous here.


Yes I've used redline MT-85 in my evo, although moved to the oem 75w85 as this was considered a slightly better oil. Redline shockproof heavy kept the transfer case alive during heavy hillclimb use at >300wkw so I know redline can make good oils. I'm not sure if they make anything more suitable for my trans than the oem FFL-3 however.
 
Redline told me you can mix MTL and D4. I have done that in every manual BMW trans I have had. I put in 1 bottle of MTL and fill the rest of the way with D4. This is because in cooler temps, the shifts were slow. At the time I was doing 6 track days a year.
 
Originally Posted By: ganseg
Redline told me you can mix MTL and D4. I have done that in every manual BMW trans I have had. I put in 1 bottle of MTL and fill the rest of the way with D4. This is because in cooler temps, the shifts were slow. At the time I was doing 6 track days a year.


^^^THIS is exactly what I am currently doing in my T56 (3 quarts D4 and 1 quart of MTL).
wink.gif
 
I emailed redline and said my vehicle actually calls for MTF-LT-5. This surprised them as they thought every N54 equipped vehicle used only MTF-LT-3. Not the 1M, it seems. In light of this they revised their recommendation to their DCTF fluid

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=146&pcid=9

There's still a paucity of any real data I can find on Pentosin or the Redline DCTF. Pentosin website and companies that on-sell it's websites tend to look like they were designed by an 8 year old and I'm waiting for the popup asking me if I want to bundle a set of steak knives with my purchase, really off-putting when I'm purchasing oil for a performance car.

Redline MTL is recommended by almost all BMW transmission builders that have written about their preferences publicly...I'm still a bit lost on what to do.

I have access to and am trying to choose between:

- BMW MTF-LT-5 (Pentosin FFL-3)
- Redline DCTF
- Redline MTL
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: oilnub
I emailed redline and said my vehicle actually calls for MTF-LT-5. This surprised them as they thought every N54 equipped vehicle used only MTF-LT-3. Not the 1M, it seems. In light of this they revised their recommendation to their DCTF fluid

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=146&pcid=9

There's still a paucity of any real data I can find on Pentosin or the Redline DCTF. Pentosin website and companies that on-sell it's websites tend to look like they were designed by an 8 year old and I'm waiting for the popup asking me if I want to bundle a set of steak knives with my purchase, really off-putting when I'm purchasing oil for a performance car.

Redline MTL is recommended by almost all BMW transmission builders that have written about their preferences publicly...I'm still a bit lost on what to do.

Well I gave you the link from ZF a few posts ago. We weren't making up the Pentosin suggestion. Redline probably just visited the same link.

ZF the manufacturer of your transmission selected Pentosin. It doesn't get much easier than that.


IMO it seems that cost is an issue and you like to wrench on cars. Manual transmissions evolve just like Automatics. Besides there really isn't a lot that you need to do on these cars no matter how badly it conflicts with your WANT.
 
Last edited:
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