I didn't need to use the "corn is grass" argument further. I figured you were intelligent enough to look it up for yourself since you didn't take my word for it. Did I assume too much?
So I converted a car to E85 today
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when confronted with the omega 3 omega 6 in grass fed versus corn fed beef, which is clear cut, both in terms of fatty acids in the beef product, AND in human health outcomes, you responded with "corn is grass"
I'm intelligent enough to work out that you have a dog in the fight, and to follow the money that TiredTrucker makes money from corn...
Tell me that there's no corn money in your income stream...prove that case, and you own me...
I'm intelligent enough to work out that you have a dog in the fight, and to follow the money that TiredTrucker makes money from corn...
Tell me that there's no corn money in your income stream...prove that case, and you own me...
But what also seems to elude many folks ideas on this, probably because they have never been around a cattle operation, is that corn is just one component of a feed ration, and not the primary one. Stop by a cattle operation and have them show you the mix they serve up and explain the ingredients. Very balanced nutrition. Stop by a feed supply place that caters to livestock, and have them show you their warehouse and the variety of stuff that is used for livestock feed mixtures. Again, corn is just one component. For some reason, folks have this perception that shell corn is brought in and dumped in front of cattle and they either have a choice to eat it or starve, as it is all they will get.
The only "corn money" in my income stream is from hauling feed products from ethanol plants to swine and poultry producers. I don't even deal with the cattle folks. But there is hardly any activity in America that doesn't have some ties to the corn that is raised in this country. From food to plastics. Corn is the most versatile product that we grow and is used more widely than just about any other product. To view it as only a livestock feed, a human food, or a fuel is myopic to the extreme. And many of the varied products that are sourced from corn, are derived at ethanol plants. Those plants are not all about making ethanol. They are the source for a wide variety of corn byproducts.
The only "corn money" in my income stream is from hauling feed products from ethanol plants to swine and poultry producers. I don't even deal with the cattle folks. But there is hardly any activity in America that doesn't have some ties to the corn that is raised in this country. From food to plastics. Corn is the most versatile product that we grow and is used more widely than just about any other product. To view it as only a livestock feed, a human food, or a fuel is myopic to the extreme. And many of the varied products that are sourced from corn, are derived at ethanol plants. Those plants are not all about making ethanol. They are the source for a wide variety of corn byproducts.
So what was the purpose of the e85 conversion in this application?
Is it for performance, or because e85 is cheaper?
I guess in europe fuel costs a lot so that may make sense if the spread is enough to go to e85.
Here in the US gas is pretty darn cheap.
I can only see doing this for performance reasons, like a turbo mitsu, or wrx.
I just paid $1.84 for a gallon of 87 octane top tier gas from Costco yesterday.
Is it for performance, or because e85 is cheaper?
I guess in europe fuel costs a lot so that may make sense if the spread is enough to go to e85.
Here in the US gas is pretty darn cheap.
I can only see doing this for performance reasons, like a turbo mitsu, or wrx.
I just paid $1.84 for a gallon of 87 octane top tier gas from Costco yesterday.
Corn on the cob, corn dogs, corn pone, corn bread, pop corn, corn soup, corn stew, peas and corn, the corn on your toe, corny jokes, corn liquor, corn syrup, corn meal, corn mash, corn.....and that's all I got to say about corn.
E85 for me, is an option when the price spread is good enough so that, even with the lower mpg, it provides the lowest cost per mile. And that is all I concern myself with... the cost per mile. Higher mpg is nice, but if it is costing more per mile to get a high mpg number, it isn't worth it. That is also why I am primarily using E15 right now, I suffer no appreciable loss of fuel economy with it compared to E10 and E0, yet it is 10 cents lower than E10 and 30 cents lower than E0 in my area. So, it goes in the tank. E85, right now, doesn't have a price spread compared to the others to make it a cost effective option. I don't go in for some E85 offers more power, is cleaner, or whatever. I am purely practical and come at it like I do my business stuff. I use what will give me the lowest cost per mile. One of the reasons I have a flex fuel engine in my 2015 pickup. I like having the option of a wide variety of fuels to keep the cost per mile as low as possible, depending on the price spreads at the time.
And fuel prices are regional. There is no way, even at Costco in my area, you are not going to get 87 octane for that low of a price as you got. 87 E10 is averaging around $2.19 in Central Iowa. 87 E0 is about 20 cents more and E15 is 10 cents less.
And fuel prices are regional. There is no way, even at Costco in my area, you are not going to get 87 octane for that low of a price as you got. 87 E10 is averaging around $2.19 in Central Iowa. 87 E0 is about 20 cents more and E15 is 10 cents less.
I converted my truck for awhile but went back to regular gasoline. It was ez. Open fuel door, add E85 till the empty tank was full then close fuel door. Open tuning program and set stoich to a number in the 9's. I forget what I used for stoich but it worked well. Lost a little mileage but gained a real feel low end torque. On a truck that is hard to get moving it was nice. Replaced the fuel tank as of late and it is spotless.
Originally Posted By: bigt61
Making corn more expensive causes more starvation worldwide and higher food prices in the US.
Ok, I'll bite.... And I know the answer, just asking to see if you do.... What is the current price for corn at the close today and what was the price 20 years ago in 1995 at this time of the year?
Making corn more expensive causes more starvation worldwide and higher food prices in the US.
Ok, I'll bite.... And I know the answer, just asking to see if you do.... What is the current price for corn at the close today and what was the price 20 years ago in 1995 at this time of the year?
Corn is gross unless it's on the cob anyhow.
It's not just corn...It's regional.
Australia, the grain fed beef isn't corn, barley is preferred, but wheat is king...as it is in thanol.
Like amazingly the most sure way of meeting US biodiesel standards is corn oil while ours is Canola...freaky that they are the crops with the lobbiests.
Australia, the grain fed beef isn't corn, barley is preferred, but wheat is king...as it is in thanol.
Like amazingly the most sure way of meeting US biodiesel standards is corn oil while ours is Canola...freaky that they are the crops with the lobbiests.
I wish they (whoever they is), would use heavy fuels such as coal for power generation, the gaseous fuels for heating, cooking and transportation,
and plant material for; 1. human consumption, 2. animal feed 3.bio-waste feed-stock.
and plant material for; 1. human consumption, 2. animal feed 3.bio-waste feed-stock.
I know, I'm just being difficult.
Of course, wheat and barley are big up here. Canola is a biodiesel star here, too, but we don't hear much lately.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Like amazingly the most sure way of meeting US biodiesel standards is corn oil while ours is Canola...freaky that they are the crops with the lobbiests.
Soybean oil is the primary biodiesel feed stock in the U.S. There is also animal fat and waste cooking oil in the mix at a smaller scale. There is some corn oil used that comes from ethanol plants and some other plant oils. Soybean oil was a product in search of a market before biodiesel came along. It is a removed byproduct of soybean meal processing. Algae shows promise as a major plant oil biodiesel feed stock, but the cost of getting that off the ground is prohibitive right now. That one is interesting... heated water from power generating plants could be used for large scale algae growth systems. The oil from the processed algae used for biodiesel production. A win win. Will be a good thing if they can get the development costs manageable to make it a profitable operation.
Folks seem to be stuck on on the corn for beef thing. The vast majority of corn for animal feed is utilized by the swine, poultry, and other livestock industries. Including major catfish growing operations! Beef are primarily on grass and hay until the final weeks before slaughter, at which they do get rations that are a variety mix, of which corn is in it, all to increase body weights before heading off to packing plants. And the resulting Dried Distillers Grain corn from ethanol production is used in a lot of livestock feed mixes. Of every bushel of corn that goes into a ethanol plant, over 18 lb of feed products comes out the other end.
Like amazingly the most sure way of meeting US biodiesel standards is corn oil while ours is Canola...freaky that they are the crops with the lobbiests.
Soybean oil is the primary biodiesel feed stock in the U.S. There is also animal fat and waste cooking oil in the mix at a smaller scale. There is some corn oil used that comes from ethanol plants and some other plant oils. Soybean oil was a product in search of a market before biodiesel came along. It is a removed byproduct of soybean meal processing. Algae shows promise as a major plant oil biodiesel feed stock, but the cost of getting that off the ground is prohibitive right now. That one is interesting... heated water from power generating plants could be used for large scale algae growth systems. The oil from the processed algae used for biodiesel production. A win win. Will be a good thing if they can get the development costs manageable to make it a profitable operation.
Folks seem to be stuck on on the corn for beef thing. The vast majority of corn for animal feed is utilized by the swine, poultry, and other livestock industries. Including major catfish growing operations! Beef are primarily on grass and hay until the final weeks before slaughter, at which they do get rations that are a variety mix, of which corn is in it, all to increase body weights before heading off to packing plants. And the resulting Dried Distillers Grain corn from ethanol production is used in a lot of livestock feed mixes. Of every bushel of corn that goes into a ethanol plant, over 18 lb of feed products comes out the other end.
If you find the Injectors hitting 100% duty cycle increase their size by 1.47 for E85.
Eg stock 19lb = 28lb rounded off
Eg stock 19lb = 28lb rounded off
(I skipped pg 3,4,and 5 due to discussions at that point in time)
The issue of OEM injector sizing can be variable with the particular vehicle design. We never really know what particular design specs the OEM engineers used, OR if they had to downsize to a lesser-size injector to meet "Accounting" needs on the "end of the assembly line" vehicle production cost. So, to me, NO universal statement can be made of "what works" on a particular vehicle or all vehicles. Adding some additional fuel pressure (via fuel regulator adjustments, which also have their limits) is a Band-Aid fix at best, to me.
By observation, LOTS of things blow up at race tracks. Mis-guided "upgrades", poorly-executed "upgrades", or trying to make something work that "somebody" said would work or had worked for them . . . it's all in the mix.
When "alcohol" classes were added at some dirt tracks (DFW area)in the 1990s, some racers discovered that they could just take the jets out of the Holley 4bbls they were running (4150s or similar) and then just worry about keeping it running at "idle" speeds. My machine shop operative called it "controlled flood". They had to do an oil change after each race due to fuel dilution.
To me, better to build an engine capable and durable on E85 rather than seek to convert an existing gasoline engine to run on E85.
GM built scads of Suburbans/Tahoes that were E85-capable, back then. No outside badging, just a "hang tag" on the inside rear view mirror. Lots of 4-cyl S-10s, too (whose owners didn't know what they'd bought until fuel filter replacement, which also contained the fuel sensor, at $90.00 for the part). This was the later 1990s when GWBush administration had the "flex-fuel factor" in the fuel economy ratings, such that such vehicles received "mileage credits" to keep the CAFE up to specs . . . in the middle-late 1990s. At that time, in DFW, E85 had very LOW availability and most purchasers didn't know what flex-fuel meant.
As other OEMs were cautioning against using anything other than E10 in their vehicles, GM quietly started building E85 vehicles as "standard equipment" . . . look for the Yellow gas cap! That was about the 2012 model year? Not to make GM look good on this, just to mention it for informational purposes. On these later vehicles, GM uses the oxy sensor to determine the E-concentration as a virtual fuel type sensor of sorts.
BUT, for a carbureted engine, things are MUCH different! Engines and fuel systems need to be much more "purpose-built" to use either E10-15 or E85 efficiently, which can be done. Only thing is that to do it "E85" means you'd need another carburetor if you were going to go cross-country in the same vehicle. Some sort of detonation limited would also be needed, I suspect.
Happy Holidays!
CBODY67
The issue of OEM injector sizing can be variable with the particular vehicle design. We never really know what particular design specs the OEM engineers used, OR if they had to downsize to a lesser-size injector to meet "Accounting" needs on the "end of the assembly line" vehicle production cost. So, to me, NO universal statement can be made of "what works" on a particular vehicle or all vehicles. Adding some additional fuel pressure (via fuel regulator adjustments, which also have their limits) is a Band-Aid fix at best, to me.
By observation, LOTS of things blow up at race tracks. Mis-guided "upgrades", poorly-executed "upgrades", or trying to make something work that "somebody" said would work or had worked for them . . . it's all in the mix.
When "alcohol" classes were added at some dirt tracks (DFW area)in the 1990s, some racers discovered that they could just take the jets out of the Holley 4bbls they were running (4150s or similar) and then just worry about keeping it running at "idle" speeds. My machine shop operative called it "controlled flood". They had to do an oil change after each race due to fuel dilution.
To me, better to build an engine capable and durable on E85 rather than seek to convert an existing gasoline engine to run on E85.
GM built scads of Suburbans/Tahoes that were E85-capable, back then. No outside badging, just a "hang tag" on the inside rear view mirror. Lots of 4-cyl S-10s, too (whose owners didn't know what they'd bought until fuel filter replacement, which also contained the fuel sensor, at $90.00 for the part). This was the later 1990s when GWBush administration had the "flex-fuel factor" in the fuel economy ratings, such that such vehicles received "mileage credits" to keep the CAFE up to specs . . . in the middle-late 1990s. At that time, in DFW, E85 had very LOW availability and most purchasers didn't know what flex-fuel meant.
As other OEMs were cautioning against using anything other than E10 in their vehicles, GM quietly started building E85 vehicles as "standard equipment" . . . look for the Yellow gas cap! That was about the 2012 model year? Not to make GM look good on this, just to mention it for informational purposes. On these later vehicles, GM uses the oxy sensor to determine the E-concentration as a virtual fuel type sensor of sorts.
BUT, for a carbureted engine, things are MUCH different! Engines and fuel systems need to be much more "purpose-built" to use either E10-15 or E85 efficiently, which can be done. Only thing is that to do it "E85" means you'd need another carburetor if you were going to go cross-country in the same vehicle. Some sort of detonation limited would also be needed, I suspect.
Happy Holidays!
CBODY67
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Also interesting to know about the aftermarket kits and which ones are the best.
CBODY67
CBODY67
Non flex-fuel car on E-85
I think I saw this video posted here a while back. When gas prices were high, I played around with E-85 mixes and found that I could use around 25% in my Silverado 4.3 non flex fuel engine and not worry about the CEL coming on. If I ran 50% it would come on. I like ethanol because it is domestically made, burns cleaner, is easier on your engine, keeps your fuel system cleaner, etc.
I think I saw this video posted here a while back. When gas prices were high, I played around with E-85 mixes and found that I could use around 25% in my Silverado 4.3 non flex fuel engine and not worry about the CEL coming on. If I ran 50% it would come on. I like ethanol because it is domestically made, burns cleaner, is easier on your engine, keeps your fuel system cleaner, etc.
Carbs made just for E85 are available. Holley made some for Ford in prototype. We had them plated then had to resize all the screw holes due to the amount of plating. Never saw another one of them come thru as a production piece or found out how the program went. If you want to defeat the corrosive properties is to make it out of stainless steel. Probably cost prohibitive with all the machining needed. When we made 100% alcohol conversions for racing it was just hog out all the passages one drill size short of breaking thru the castings and make the fuel curve twice that of gas. The entire fuel system was then flushed with gasoline till the motor couldn't take the new fuel curve.
30% is about all the stock computer calibration can compensate for. I just change the stoic to 9.765 from 14.08 and all is well with the 24lb injectors up from 19lb.
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