Understanding Modern 2-Cycle Lubricants

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Before even clicking on that link, I had a fairly good idea of what I was going to see; just another guy that the powersports industry is rife with -- they've figured things out better than any OEM/large oil producer, and have concocted some super-duper, totally awesome product to sell.

Oh look, what do we see...

"Manufactures insist on using synthetics because they lack the technology to blend a petroleum 2T oil that will burn clean and not cause pre-mature power valve sticking."
mad.gif


Even though it's a little bit of a detour, I got a good chuckle out of something else he is trying to sell -- a reusable, stainless mesh oil filter that goes for $89.99 and up: http://www.legendperformance.com/products-page-2/oilfilters/billet-oil-filter/

"We use ASTMF316 testing procedures which eliminate many of the user variables found in the SAE procedures. Basically, the filter media is pressurized from one side, and when the media starts passing particles, that is the micron rating. We sent filter media from several common brands of paper filters to the lab to be run through the ASTM test. We sent the media to the lab with no names, just numbers for identification so they wouldn’t have any idea what brand filter they were testing. The results for the paper filters ranged from 48 microns for the best filter to over 300 microns for the worst filter. Our tests were right in line with other testing results we have researched that have paper media filters passing particles anywhere between 50 and 90 microns. What does this mean? Paper filters are rated on averages, percentages of efficiency (also known as beta ratios) and multiple passes, so a 10 micron rated paper filter (as advertised on the packaging) may be letting particles 50 microns and larger through. The medical grade stainless steel cloth that we use is consistent across the entire media surface and is rated at 35 microns, meaning nothing larger than 35 microns should pass through the material. The bottom line is we meet or exceed the filtration performance of OEM filters, eliminating any warranty issues."

That's absurd on several levels, of which one is utilizing that test method in the first place. Here's the word directly from ASTM:

"The results of this test method should not be used as the sole factor to describe the limiting size for retention of particulate contaminants from fluids. The effective pore size calculated from this test method is based on the premise of capillary pores having circular cross sections, and does not refer to actual particle size retention."

Anyways, his dissertation on two-stroke oils is nothing more than cherry-picking data to fit the argument, anecdotal statements, and continual reliance on false cause (correlation = causation) and composition/division fallacies.
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
I have a stainless oil filter like that which passes 34 micron od particles that are 3 inches long. What should I do?


Oh, I ain't biting onto that one... No sir.

John.
 
It's called a Remington Micro Shave, but it illustrates the point Ramblejam made in his post. The pore size of the filter can control the maximum particle diameter, but not it's length.
 
`
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
So, they claim "natural" oil sticks better to metal than "man made" oil? Where does that put Group III?
In the Nano range, The oil of NASCAR official oil range ETC. Almost syn but then not quite.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Before even clicking on that link, I had a fairly good idea of what I was going to see; just another guy that the powersports industry is rife with -- they've figured things out better than any OEM/large oil producer, and have concocted some super-duper, totally awesome product to sell.

Oh look, what do we see...

"Manufactures insist on using synthetics because they lack the technology to blend a petroleum 2T oil that will burn clean and not cause pre-mature power valve sticking."
mad.gif




Even though it's a little bit of a detour, I got a good chuckle out of something else he is trying to sell -- a reusable, stainless mesh oil filter that goes for $89.99 and up: http://www.legendperformance.com/products-page-2/oilfilters/billet-oil-filter/

"We use ASTMF316 testing procedures which eliminate many of the user variables found in the SAE procedures. Basically, the filter media is pressurized from one side, and when the media starts passing particles, that is the micron rating. We sent filter media from several common brands of paper filters to the lab to be run through the ASTM test. We sent the media to the lab with no names, just numbers for identification so they wouldn’t have any idea what brand filter they were testing. The results for the paper filters ranged from 48 microns for the best filter to over 300 microns for the worst filter. Our tests were right in line with other testing results we have researched that have paper media filters passing particles anywhere between 50 and 90 microns. What does this mean? Paper filters are rated on averages, percentages of efficiency (also known as beta ratios) and multiple passes, so a 10 micron rated paper filter (as advertised on the packaging) may be letting particles 50 microns and larger through. The medical grade stainless steel cloth that we use is consistent across the entire media surface and is rated at 35 microns, meaning nothing larger than 35 microns should pass through the material. The bottom line is we meet or exceed the filtration performance of OEM filters, eliminating any warranty issues."

That's absurd on several levels, of which one is utilizing that test method in the first place. Here's the word directly from ASTM:

"The results of this test method should not be used as the sole factor to describe the limiting size for retention of particulate contaminants from fluids. The effective pore size calculated from this test method is based on the premise of capillary pores having circular cross sections, and does not refer to actual particle size retention."

Anyways, his dissertation on two-stroke oils is nothing more than cherry-picking data to fit the argument, anecdotal statements, and continual reliance on false cause (correlation = causation) and composition/division fallacies.



I've searched the web for other two cycle ois sold by the guys you claim "have figured things out better than any OEM/large oil producer, and have concocted some super-duper, totally awesome product to sell", and am having a hard time finding them. Do you have any of their websites?, I am always interested in views and information on two cycle oil. I have used Legend two cycle oil for 6 years now and with careful examination of engines with over 150 hours total running time found it to be an excellent oil.
 
Hello, Mike.

I wasn't referring to two-stroke products in particular, but the industry as a whole; be it boats, trucks, ATV's, or sleds, there are always entrepreneurial individuals ready to sell you on the next great thing.

I have no doubt that this product was born out of observation, and the failings of some early-generation synthetics. The issue at play here is that it's almost 2016, and much has changed; even the treatise we're linked appears to have been written more than 10 years ago.

I see nothing that would persuade me to purchase this product today.
 
From the article:
Quote:
This art is referred to as “chemical engineering”


Um, as a chemical engineer, I feel the need to point out that that is in no way chemical engineering.

This article is just full of generalities and really says nothing in the end except that their brand is the best because they say so.

Not all synthetics are the same and to just say that they all behave the same way and can be surpassed by the same formulation method is ignorant. There are dirty burning synthetics and there are clean burning synthetics and then there are a million different additives to add the alter those base properties.

So to generalize it and say that theirs is the best because manufacturers haven't figure it out yet is nonsense. Clean burning petroleum oils and clean burning synthetics are not created with secret unobtanium. It just takes careful formulation and selecting the right base stock and additive combinations, and it doesn't matter if it is petroleum or synthetic base stocks because both have been figured out for a long time now.

Edit: By the way I know this post is old, I'm just catching up, give me a break people!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
From the article:
This art is referred to as “chemical engineering”


Um, as a chemical engineer, I feel the need to point out that that is in no way chemical engineering.

This article is just full of generalities and really says nothing in the end except that their brand is the best because they say so.

Not all synthetics are the same and to just say that they all behave the same way and can be surpassed by the same formulation method is ignorant. There are dirty burning synthetics and there are clean burning synthetics and then there are a million different additives to add the alter those base properties.

So to generalize it and say that theirs is the best because manufacturers haven't figure it out yet is nonsense. Clean burning petroleum oils and clean burning synthetics are not created with secret unobtanium. It just takes careful formulation and selecting the right base stock and additive combinations, and it doesn't matter if it is petroleum or synthetic base stocks because both have been figured out for a long time now.

Edit: By the way welcome !!!!!!!!!
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Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted By: CT8


Edit: By the way welcome !!!!!!!!!
welcome2.gif
welcome2.gif
welcome2.gif



Thanks, I've been reading BITOG for a long time now and just couldn't stay away any longer.
 
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