MB uses liquid CO2 for AC?
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They are just following the order of the disciples of the climate change religion, it probably sucks like anything else that claims to be green.
Originally Posted By: Trav
They are just following the order of the disciples of the climate change religion, it probably sucks like anything else that claims to be green.
Bring back R12!!! In the end, the leftists don't want us prols to have any AC at all. "Environmental policy" don't cha know.
They are just following the order of the disciples of the climate change religion, it probably sucks like anything else that claims to be green.
Bring back R12!!! In the end, the leftists don't want us prols to have any AC at all. "Environmental policy" don't cha know.
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Where exactly are they getting their supply of CO2 to charge these systems with? Are they scrubbing it out of the atmosphere? Or are they....gasp.... PRODUCING it?
Where exactly are they getting their supply of CO2 to charge these systems with? Are they scrubbing it out of the atmosphere? Or are they....gasp.... PRODUCING it?
A veteran AC specialist informed me that a ton of shops use Propane for their AC units.
Really!
Anyone else know this as fact?
Really!
Anyone else know this as fact?
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
Those with concerns for thee environment aren't "Leftists".
Jeepers!
Jeepers!
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
A veteran AC specialist informed me that a ton of shops use Propane for their AC units.
Really!
Anyone else know this as fact?
Propane does work as a refrigerant, it's just not widely used due to its flammability in case of a leak.
A veteran AC specialist informed me that a ton of shops use Propane for their AC units.
Really!
Anyone else know this as fact?
Propane does work as a refrigerant, it's just not widely used due to its flammability in case of a leak.
Originally Posted By: Trav
They are just following the order of the disciples of the climate change religion, it probably sucks like anything else that claims to be green.
Just another marketing ploy.
I have used the propane based refrigerant in cars. Works extremely well. Not nearly as poisonous as "R" anything...
They are just following the order of the disciples of the climate change religion, it probably sucks like anything else that claims to be green.
Just another marketing ploy.
I have used the propane based refrigerant in cars. Works extremely well. Not nearly as poisonous as "R" anything...
Originally Posted By: supton
What kind of pressures are going to be required in order to carry the required heat load?
Googling, can find 135 bar high 90 bar low.
That's 1958psi/1305psi. Pretty much puts it up out of the DIY crowd to service.
> Since the critical temperature of carbon dioxide is rather low (31.06°C, 87.908°F), using air-cooling gas coolers in the carbon dioxide refrigeration system might have the poor heat rejection function of high pressure side of the system when ambient temperatures are higher than the critical temperature of carbon dioxide.
What kind of pressures are going to be required in order to carry the required heat load?
Googling, can find 135 bar high 90 bar low.
That's 1958psi/1305psi. Pretty much puts it up out of the DIY crowd to service.
> Since the critical temperature of carbon dioxide is rather low (31.06°C, 87.908°F), using air-cooling gas coolers in the carbon dioxide refrigeration system might have the poor heat rejection function of high pressure side of the system when ambient temperatures are higher than the critical temperature of carbon dioxide.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
You're on target. Methane is another GHG that packs a punch.
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
You're on target. Methane is another GHG that packs a punch.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
Here is a link with the ozone depleting and GWP comparison of various refrigerants.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/Refrigerants-Environment-Properties-d_1220.html
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
Here is a link with the ozone depleting and GWP comparison of various refrigerants.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/Refrigerants-Environment-Properties-d_1220.html
Propane works very, very similarly to R-12 in air conditioning systems- the gas/liquid transition temperature and pressure are very close and it readily transports ordinary, old-school mineral lubricating oil. It was a leading candidate to replace R-12, but the flammability issue and industry pressure nixed it except in the quasi-illegal aftermarket realm (regulated shops are at risk if they use it, but you can do whatever you want to your own car without much fear). Now I know, its not really more flammable in a car accident than the oil-loaded mist that can spray out of an R-12 or R-134a system... but I would be a little bit worried about an evaporator leak that lets propane settle into the lowest part of the ductwork... then you start the car and turn on the blower with its arcing commutator... even that's not likely to produce a deadly explosion, but could make enough of a "fuh-WHUMP" to do some damage and injury.
And come on, seriously: Haven't R-134a systems been the most reliable AC systems any of us have ever had? My first R-134a system was in a 1993 vehicle, and it had ONE issue over the course of 250,000 miles- the original evaporator was prone to corrosion and was replaced under a recall. I've converted two old R-12 systems to R-134a (one using an original 1969 Chrysler RV2 compressor), and they've been booking along fine for 10 YEARS! I wouldn't want to go back to R-12 OR propane, necessarily, given how well 134a is working out despite all the dire fears that were rampant in the 1990s.
And come on, seriously: Haven't R-134a systems been the most reliable AC systems any of us have ever had? My first R-134a system was in a 1993 vehicle, and it had ONE issue over the course of 250,000 miles- the original evaporator was prone to corrosion and was replaced under a recall. I've converted two old R-12 systems to R-134a (one using an original 1969 Chrysler RV2 compressor), and they've been booking along fine for 10 YEARS! I wouldn't want to go back to R-12 OR propane, necessarily, given how well 134a is working out despite all the dire fears that were rampant in the 1990s.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
Yea I know... was just being tongue in cheek about the irony of using more CO2 to combat the effects of too much CO2. The ongoing impact of the chemical reactions of the various other refrigerants is the issue, I do get all of that.
I normally steer clear of these types of threads, they tend to get out of hand very quickly....
Originally Posted By: quint
And in an ironic twist to reduce the amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, they fill their system with....CO2.
Except the CO2 that is leaked out has less impact. Don't feel like looking it up, but I recall something about how other refrigerants would cause chemical reactions etc. Much larger impact.
Plus tress and plants could absorb that CO2. R12 not so much.
Yea I know... was just being tongue in cheek about the irony of using more CO2 to combat the effects of too much CO2. The ongoing impact of the chemical reactions of the various other refrigerants is the issue, I do get all of that.
I normally steer clear of these types of threads, they tend to get out of hand very quickly....
Gotcha. Yeah, you're right, it is ironic...
These threads can go off the rails, and perhaps I did attempt to stir the pot... but still, I thought it interesting. Already learned one thing, it's 2,000psi. Sounds stupid high, but common rail diesels run much higher. Then again, most don't think those systems are DIY either.
One upshot to this sort of system: should be able to vent at will for work. Unless if the oil required is somehow verboten to release in that manner.
These threads can go off the rails, and perhaps I did attempt to stir the pot... but still, I thought it interesting. Already learned one thing, it's 2,000psi. Sounds stupid high, but common rail diesels run much higher. Then again, most don't think those systems are DIY either.
One upshot to this sort of system: should be able to vent at will for work. Unless if the oil required is somehow verboten to release in that manner.
Originally Posted By: quint
Where exactly are they getting their supply of CO2 to charge these systems with? Are they scrubbing it out of the atmosphere? Or are they....gasp.... PRODUCING it?
They probably aren't producing it, they probably buy it just like everyone else. Ever wonder where the CO2 in soda comes from? Same place.
I use to work at a company that had a small plant that made CO2. Lost a little money on it every year, but because it was a co-generation power plant and was run using the steam from the power plant, they got a little more money for the electricity than if they didn't have the CO2 plant.
Where exactly are they getting their supply of CO2 to charge these systems with? Are they scrubbing it out of the atmosphere? Or are they....gasp.... PRODUCING it?
They probably aren't producing it, they probably buy it just like everyone else. Ever wonder where the CO2 in soda comes from? Same place.
I use to work at a company that had a small plant that made CO2. Lost a little money on it every year, but because it was a co-generation power plant and was run using the steam from the power plant, they got a little more money for the electricity than if they didn't have the CO2 plant.
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