Ecclestone says.....
http://au.eurosport.com/formula-1/formul...435/story.shtml
http://au.eurosport.com/formula-1/formul...435/story.shtml
Independent engine supplier
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Anything that would lead to more car/driver combinations that had a chance to lead a lap or win a race would be a welcome change. Right now F1 is an expensive high tech parade with ugly billboards that drive around a race track and play follow the leader.
I would like to see them give all the teams a restricter plate and let them run any engine, any size and any configuration they'd like.
I would like to see them give all the teams a restricter plate and let them run any engine, any size and any configuration they'd like.
Wouldn't a restrictor plate be a rather low tech option for Formula 1, to the point of being worse than useless?
Nope. Teams could be left alone to create their own version of a world beating engine and do it on whatever budget they could generate. And there would be competition on the track. Because of differing performance cars could pass each other.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Nope. Teams could be left alone to create their own version of a world beating engine and do it on whatever budget they could generate. And there would be competition on the track. Because of differing performance cars could pass each other.
There already is differing performance and all but the best runners getting lapped. And, they are free to spend whatever they can budget. That's part of the problem.
A restrictor plate would just get guys like Ron Dennis and Sir Frank to get really creative with their hybrid systems, and more so with Ferrari and Mercedes. This notion that F1 is some parade is sadly mistaken and out of date. There are issues about competitiveness, but that's causing the lack of overtaking. Everyone outside of Mercedes and Ferrari and whatever team is doing third best in whatever race is happening gets lapped at least once. There is no concern about differing performance. Honda and Renault have made sure that's very apparent.
Bernie and FIA just need to lay the law down. There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but letting certain teams push engine complexity so high that only OEMs can even consider getting involved and engine development and that only OEM teams can possibly win the championship is the problem.
Williams wants wind tunnel testing because they own wind tunnels. Mercedes doesn't want to allow more engines in the season because they're ahead of the game in reliability. No one wants to give Red Bull an engine. Red Bull wants to kick an engine supplier to the curb mid season and then expects everyone to rescue them. Ferrari and Mercedes want to play expensive games that no one else can play. Ron Dennis has a veto over who else Honda can supply an engine with, yet Honda is supposed to supply a second team next year, according to the agreement that allowed them back into F1. Ferrari has a veto over technical changes because of historic reasons.
Bernie and FIA ideally would be able write the formula from on high, and the teams take it or leave it.
Nope. Teams could be left alone to create their own version of a world beating engine and do it on whatever budget they could generate. And there would be competition on the track. Because of differing performance cars could pass each other.
There already is differing performance and all but the best runners getting lapped. And, they are free to spend whatever they can budget. That's part of the problem.
A restrictor plate would just get guys like Ron Dennis and Sir Frank to get really creative with their hybrid systems, and more so with Ferrari and Mercedes. This notion that F1 is some parade is sadly mistaken and out of date. There are issues about competitiveness, but that's causing the lack of overtaking. Everyone outside of Mercedes and Ferrari and whatever team is doing third best in whatever race is happening gets lapped at least once. There is no concern about differing performance. Honda and Renault have made sure that's very apparent.
Bernie and FIA just need to lay the law down. There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but letting certain teams push engine complexity so high that only OEMs can even consider getting involved and engine development and that only OEM teams can possibly win the championship is the problem.
Williams wants wind tunnel testing because they own wind tunnels. Mercedes doesn't want to allow more engines in the season because they're ahead of the game in reliability. No one wants to give Red Bull an engine. Red Bull wants to kick an engine supplier to the curb mid season and then expects everyone to rescue them. Ferrari and Mercedes want to play expensive games that no one else can play. Ron Dennis has a veto over who else Honda can supply an engine with, yet Honda is supposed to supply a second team next year, according to the agreement that allowed them back into F1. Ferrari has a veto over technical changes because of historic reasons.
Bernie and FIA ideally would be able write the formula from on high, and the teams take it or leave it.
Originally Posted By: whip
When it comes to the actual race, Bernie says a lot, but rarely does anything.
Well, he left the track on race morning the year Michelin pulled out at Indianapolis at the last minute. The fans wanted his head on a stick. They started the race with only Bridgestone cars. 3 teams I think. Nothing like paying over a C-Note a ticket to watch paint dry.
When it comes to the actual race, Bernie says a lot, but rarely does anything.
Well, he left the track on race morning the year Michelin pulled out at Indianapolis at the last minute. The fans wanted his head on a stick. They started the race with only Bridgestone cars. 3 teams I think. Nothing like paying over a C-Note a ticket to watch paint dry.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Nope. Teams could be left alone to create their own version of a world beating engine and do it on whatever budget they could generate. And there would be competition on the track. Because of differing performance cars could pass each other.
Bernie and FIA ideally would be able write the formula from on high, and the teams take it or leave it.
It's that kind of behavior on the part of the FIA in the 1970's that led to the formation of the Formula One Constructor's Association. The sanctioning body was making rules changes that made cars illegal after the teams had spent a lot of money building them. The Concorde Agreement must be signed by all teams to approve rules changes in the basic Formula. Bernie wouldn't be able to put on much of a show if only 2-3 teams showed up.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Nope. Teams could be left alone to create their own version of a world beating engine and do it on whatever budget they could generate. And there would be competition on the track. Because of differing performance cars could pass each other.
Bernie and FIA ideally would be able write the formula from on high, and the teams take it or leave it.
It's that kind of behavior on the part of the FIA in the 1970's that led to the formation of the Formula One Constructor's Association. The sanctioning body was making rules changes that made cars illegal after the teams had spent a lot of money building them. The Concorde Agreement must be signed by all teams to approve rules changes in the basic Formula. Bernie wouldn't be able to put on much of a show if only 2-3 teams showed up.
F1 has always been dominated by 1 or 2 teams, and I've been hearing complaints about lack of passing since I started watching it regularly in 1985. It is what it is. But if Bernie is going to contract with an outside engine supplier, they should build the engines to the same rules. Equivalency formulas don't work. If they want to improve the show by increasing lap speeds or raising engine exhaust pitch, allow them more fuel to go race distance. The mandatory rev limit is 15000 rpm, but the fuel allowance is too low to allow the engines to get there. I haven't seen engines revving over 12000 rpm in this formula when looking at vehicle telemetry. Going to the V6 turbo hybrid race car after 25 years of the naturally aspirated engines has forced the race teams to spend a lot of money building new cars. They should stick with the basic formula to give the teams time to amortize the investment and get efficient at working with the more complex cars.
I'm starting to lose interest in Formula 1 because of all of this. It's just too overly saturated with regulation and rule changes every 5 minutes. I know all forms of racing must have rules and specs. they have to abide by, but F1 is just off the chart with it, and I think it's starting to hurt it. Especially with American viewers.
Formula 1 is entrenched in socialist Europe, where they are legislated to death with everything. So they adapt to it better than we do. Too many rules, fines, penalties, etc. Also, way too much artificial drama. They go completely overboard with all of it, and the rules. I started watching it religiously in 1998. Now 17 years later, and God knows how many rule changes, my "rule and regulation meter" is pegged. Also going to the 6 cylinder turbo's took away a sound that was the staple of Formula 1 for years. All of this KERS stuff, no more refueling, slower lap times everywhere, and I'm pretty well bored with it. I'll watch next year only because of Haas. But after that, I honestly don't know.
Formula 1 is entrenched in socialist Europe, where they are legislated to death with everything. So they adapt to it better than we do. Too many rules, fines, penalties, etc. Also, way too much artificial drama. They go completely overboard with all of it, and the rules. I started watching it religiously in 1998. Now 17 years later, and God knows how many rule changes, my "rule and regulation meter" is pegged. Also going to the 6 cylinder turbo's took away a sound that was the staple of Formula 1 for years. All of this KERS stuff, no more refueling, slower lap times everywhere, and I'm pretty well bored with it. I'll watch next year only because of Haas. But after that, I honestly don't know.
They could go the other way. Make the race distance 200 miles and give each team 10 gallons of fuel. Then let them build anything they like. A fast efficient car would be the ticket.
Originally Posted By: billt460
I'm starting to lose interest in Formula 1 because of all of this. It's just too overly saturated with regulation and rule changes every 5 minutes. I know all forms of racing must have rules and specs. they have to abide by, but F1 is just off the chart with it, and I think it's starting to hurt it. Especially with American viewers.
Formula 1 is entrenched in socialist Europe, where they are legislated to death with everything. So they adapt to it better than we do. Too many rules, fines, penalties, etc. Also, way too much artificial drama. They go completely overboard with all of it, and the rules. I started watching it religiously in 1998. Now 17 years later, and God knows how many rule changes, my "rule and regulation meter" is pegged. Also going to the 6 cylinder turbo's took away a sound that was the staple of Formula 1 for years. All of this KERS stuff, no more refueling, slower lap times everywhere, and I'm pretty well bored with it. I'll watch next year only because of Haas. But after that, I honestly don't know.
I agree I started watching in 1990 religiously. I have not watched a full race this year. I'm so done, I am a F1 history nut and love the sport and hate to see it in the state it's currently in. Bernie must go, nothing good is going to come out of his continued strangle hold on power in the sport. He is aging and making poor decisions that are detrimental to the long term viability of the championship. I see the withdrawal of Red Bull as a serious wake up call for the governing body. Dietrich Malitec is no poser, a man of significant wealth and influence. He's not in it to run mid pack. I think they are out for sure next year.
I'm starting to lose interest in Formula 1 because of all of this. It's just too overly saturated with regulation and rule changes every 5 minutes. I know all forms of racing must have rules and specs. they have to abide by, but F1 is just off the chart with it, and I think it's starting to hurt it. Especially with American viewers.
Formula 1 is entrenched in socialist Europe, where they are legislated to death with everything. So they adapt to it better than we do. Too many rules, fines, penalties, etc. Also, way too much artificial drama. They go completely overboard with all of it, and the rules. I started watching it religiously in 1998. Now 17 years later, and God knows how many rule changes, my "rule and regulation meter" is pegged. Also going to the 6 cylinder turbo's took away a sound that was the staple of Formula 1 for years. All of this KERS stuff, no more refueling, slower lap times everywhere, and I'm pretty well bored with it. I'll watch next year only because of Haas. But after that, I honestly don't know.
I agree I started watching in 1990 religiously. I have not watched a full race this year. I'm so done, I am a F1 history nut and love the sport and hate to see it in the state it's currently in. Bernie must go, nothing good is going to come out of his continued strangle hold on power in the sport. He is aging and making poor decisions that are detrimental to the long term viability of the championship. I see the withdrawal of Red Bull as a serious wake up call for the governing body. Dietrich Malitec is no poser, a man of significant wealth and influence. He's not in it to run mid pack. I think they are out for sure next year.
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
I see the withdrawal of Red Bull as a serious wake up call for the governing body. Dietrich Malitec is no poser, a man of significant wealth and influence. He's not in it to run mid pack. I think they are out for sure next year.
I put Gene Haas in much the same category. If he feels he is being put on a "choke collar" and led around by Eccelstone, and can't achieve performance as a direct result, he'll be out just as fast as he was in. I totally agree that Eccelstone has to go. He himself is the most damaging thing Formula 1 is faced with at the moment.
I see the withdrawal of Red Bull as a serious wake up call for the governing body. Dietrich Malitec is no poser, a man of significant wealth and influence. He's not in it to run mid pack. I think they are out for sure next year.
I put Gene Haas in much the same category. If he feels he is being put on a "choke collar" and led around by Eccelstone, and can't achieve performance as a direct result, he'll be out just as fast as he was in. I totally agree that Eccelstone has to go. He himself is the most damaging thing Formula 1 is faced with at the moment.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
It's that kind of behavior on the part of the FIA in the 1970's that led to the formation of the Formula One Constructor's Association.
That's why I said "ideally." The would include them not playing games that would cause those issues we had before.
Generally speaking, though, why do I always get stuck defending Bernie here?
Some posters don't like the complicated hybrid systems. Okay, fine. Bernie didn't do that. He doesn't even like that. Talk to Mercedes and Ferrari and Renault. That's their doing, plain and simple. Don't like engine costs? Ferrari vetoed a price cap on engines. All the while, Mercedes is grumbling about Bernie looking for outside engine suppliers.
The constructors share the bulk of the blame here, and, notably, the engine suppliers. Red Bull talked themselves into a mighty tight corner. But, what kind of a system is it that they cannot buy a current spec engine from someone else? Mercedes doesn't mind selling to a lower end team, because they get money and face no competition. Ferrari wants to sell them old engines. Honda wants to, but Ron Dennis says no, and the agreement letting Honda back into F1 disagrees with the agreements between McLaren and Honda.
So, we wonder why Bernie has to play games and talk his usual nonsense all the time?
It's that kind of behavior on the part of the FIA in the 1970's that led to the formation of the Formula One Constructor's Association.
That's why I said "ideally." The would include them not playing games that would cause those issues we had before.
Generally speaking, though, why do I always get stuck defending Bernie here?
Some posters don't like the complicated hybrid systems. Okay, fine. Bernie didn't do that. He doesn't even like that. Talk to Mercedes and Ferrari and Renault. That's their doing, plain and simple. Don't like engine costs? Ferrari vetoed a price cap on engines. All the while, Mercedes is grumbling about Bernie looking for outside engine suppliers.
The constructors share the bulk of the blame here, and, notably, the engine suppliers. Red Bull talked themselves into a mighty tight corner. But, what kind of a system is it that they cannot buy a current spec engine from someone else? Mercedes doesn't mind selling to a lower end team, because they get money and face no competition. Ferrari wants to sell them old engines. Honda wants to, but Ron Dennis says no, and the agreement letting Honda back into F1 disagrees with the agreements between McLaren and Honda.
So, we wonder why Bernie has to play games and talk his usual nonsense all the time?
This article provides at least a plausible explanation with respect to some of Red Bull's problems and what Niki Lauda said about it. At least the article's story fits with what Niki was saying a few weeks back, and gives some indication as to why Red Bull is in such a pickle - a giant lack of communication.
By the way, here is a Q&A with Bernie ahead of his birthday. I'm out of here before the pitchforks come out.
By the way, here is a Q&A with Bernie ahead of his birthday. I'm out of here before the pitchforks come out.
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