Effectiveness of EXCEEDING Top Tier

[Jus10000]

I've read through several discussions here about the competing views on the overall effectiveness of Top Tier gasoline. For the sake of this thread I am using a premise that Top Tier does have an actual detergency benefit (please don't fight that hypothetical here, unless you REALLY have to). But my question is whether there can be "too much" of a good thing? Specifically, there are several gasoline retailers advertising that their gasoline exceeds even Top Tier's requirements: Shell premium advertises as 7X the EPA standard; Costco advertises at 5X the EPA standard at all of its octane levels; Amoco and Exxon also both advertise that their premium gas has a higher level of additive than Top Tier requires. I see that these claims are made in relation to the EPA minimum, but clearly they are also exceeding the Top Tier requirement. So, again, the question is: does that "extra" additive actually provide a benefit that is useful/necessary in every tankful? Is there a point where extra additive is just overkill? Is it worth the premium that Shell charges or is it just advertising/hype? I would think that the upper limit would be an over-the-counter additive, and those are required/recommended only a couple/few times per year - not every fill-up.

Welcome personal/anecdotal insights, but any studies or lab comparisons you can provide would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Tdbo]

To me, it is common sense.
If the manufacturers that put together the "Top Tier" initiative have determined the amount of detergency to be effective for their automobiles, then it should be a given that anything beyond that amount is overkill.

 

[Eddie]

Top tier fuel, which has a higher detergent level than the level mandated by the government, was recommended by engine manufactures. Manufactures felt that the government mandated level was not enough to protect engines over the long haul. ED

 

[dishdude]

There is a lot of good info here:

http://www.toptiergas.com/

Is Shell better than Costco? Who knows without independent testing, and I suspect it's a negligible amount if any. As long as it's Top Tier, I am happy.

Basically they need to use an approved additive package at a certain rate that controls deposits. They can market however they want, but to receive the Top Tier designation they need to meet certain requirements.

Quote:
Can I advertise that I am better than TT if I use 5x the EPA detergent concentration?

"Better” is a relative term. The TOP TIER program is not just about a high detergency rate. It is about an engine cleanliness and performance specification. If a fuel marketer completes all of the engine and fuel injector testing required in the TOP TIER program and passes, then they can obtain a TOP TIER license agreement and be in the program.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Tdbo
To me, it is common sense.
If the manufacturers that put together the "Top Tier" initiative have determined the amount of detergency to be effective for their automobiles, then it should be a given that anything beyond that amount is overkill.

I agree with your overall sentiment, though I'd revise the reasoning slightly.

Top Tier is actually a pretty complex set of specs, last I checked. There were probably competing concerns that the designers tried to balance. So, maybe it has the highest level of detergency additives you can have before it starts to get harmful -- or, maybe they held back a bit in favor of other concerns.

The real problem IMO is that there's no evidence that more is better. At least Top Tier has the backing of major auto manufacturers. The other brands can't offer anything more than a strong hint that more detergency equals better fuel. Hey, maybe it does! But until there's good evidence, there's no reason to buy into the hype.

So, yeah, I see no reason to go for higher detergency additive levels than Top Tier provides -- not because I think Top Tier is necessarily the max, but because there's no evidence that more is better.

 

[goodtimes]

I trust them to not put too much additive in the gas than me putting bottles of whatever in the gas, maybe spending five seconds to read the label.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Tdbo
To me, it is common sense.
If the manufacturers that put together the "Top Tier" initiative have determined the amount of detergency to be effective for their automobiles, then it should be a given that anything beyond that amount is overkill.
I see no reason to go for higher detergency additive levels than Top Tier provides -- not because I think Top Tier is necessarily the max, but because there's no evidence that more is better.


It would seem that the initiative should be an ongoing venture to determine what amount of detergency is appropriate for maximum results. Therefore, it would be logical to think there would be fluidity in the standards to allow for adjustment if research indicates that more is better.

Until such time, the standard is the standard. 5x,6x, etc is merely the vendor providing differentiation (and advertising fodder) for a commodity, in an effort to encourage the consumer to buy their brand,

Either one buys into the standard or they don't. IMO, if someone buys fuel solely based on excess beyond the standard, then they are merely paying lip service to the standard.

 

[InhalingBullets]

Considering I can get a Top Tier fuel for 30¢ a gallon cheaper 3 miles down the road from Shell at the QT, shell would have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their fuel is superior.

 

[Solarent]

The only data I've seen is that increasing the levels of detergent in the gasoline can speed up the process of clean up if the engine does have deposits (injector, intake-valve and combustion chamber deposits). This would be akin to adding a bottle of cleaner (ie Techron) for a "clean-up" tank of fuel every oil change...(unfortunately I don't have a copy I can post).

What the PPM level of detergent in say 5X EPA level vs Top TIER vs adding a bottle of Techron is I have no idea, but higher concentrations do work for speedy cleanup of deposits. I'm sure there is some benefit from higher levels. I don't think it's a case where too much is going to do any harm though. That's one of the tests for the California version of the EPA detergent concentrations (it's called CARB) - they have a "no harm" test requirement.

I've also heard rumors that the TOP TIER will increase to higher levels because of GDI deposits. The injector and combustion chamber deposits and GDI intake valve deposits are different than those found in PFI engines - I've been told the additives still work but that higher concentrations and a mechanism for getting them past the intake valves are required to have similar levels of effectiveness.

 

[AirgunSavant]

How many stations would be top tier if they didn't have to pay $30,000 + ????????
How many are top tier that we don't know about.
Also the stations that sell 100% gas instead of the ethanol blend
in theory should be far better????????

 

[Benito]

The top tier additives are the same as those in complete fuel system cleaners.

The top tier dosage has been tested as the concentration required for keep clean.

Anything in excess of that will clean existing deposits but very very slowly.

The difference between the dosage in ANY top tier gas and that in a concentrated fuel system cleaner eg Techron is huge. It would take thousands, if not tens of thousands of miles to clean to the same degree as the concentrated dose.

So, for keep clean, get the cheapest top tier.

For actual cleaning, get the cheapest PEA one tank cleaner.

Do not pay extra for any top tier that has more detergents than necessary. Save that extra for a bottle of concentrated PEA cleaner.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
Is Shell better than Costco? Who knows without independent testing, and I suspect it's a negligible amount if any. As long as it's Top Tier, I am happy.

Or, even a retailer you can trust. There are places that aren't Top Tier where I'm happy to fill, though I generally do fill at Top Tier stations, simply because there is a proliferation of them and they all sell gas at the same price as most of the supposed "discount" stations anyhow.

 

[TiredTrucker]

I have the reverse situation. very limited top tier outlets and a plethora of non top tier outlets. I am not going to go out of my way, more miles, etc to live in the top tier camp. While not arguing that it might be effective to some degree, many of us in my neck of the woods has been filling up a Casey's, Murphy's, Hy-Vee, Kum & Go, etc in my area, which are all non top tier outlets, and we don't experience all the supposed fuel system related problems that some suppose would happen by not doing top tier. And I sure will not pay some inflated price to do top tier.

I have, over the years, been more concerned with volumes the outlets sell rather than some top tier thing. Higher volume fuel outlets will generally have the best, freshest fuel. Since all fuel outlets in a general area are being supplied from the same fuel terminal or two, I don't really see quality between outlets being a major issue, except on a volume basis.

 

[Garak]

Volume is certainly important. I will fill at the Husky truck stop, which is not Top Tier, without hesitation. I did have one terrible tank of fuel at a neighborhood Husky station, though. I'm sure the volumes sold are substantially different.

There are some high volume stations, however, that I wouldn't use around here. And, there are a couple Top Tier stations that look more than a little run down, and wouldn't be my first choice, either.

Essentially, though, there are about four stations roughly within a mile of my residence. Three of them are Top Tier, and one is the small Husky that gave me problems. I would suggest that Top Tier stations outnumber non-Top Tier stations by a significant margin here.

 

[Bear]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I have the reverse situation. very limited top tier outlets and a plethora of non top tier outlets. I am not going to go out of my way, more miles, etc to live in the top tier camp. While not arguing that it might be effective to some degree, many of us in my neck of the woods has been filling up a Casey's, Murphy's, Hy-Vee, Kum & Go, etc in my area, which are all non top tier outlets, and we don't experience all the supposed fuel system related problems that some suppose would happen by not doing top tier. And I sure will not pay some inflated price to do top tier.

I have, over the years, been more concerned with volumes the outlets sell rather than some top tier thing. Higher volume fuel outlets will generally have the best, freshest fuel. Since all fuel outlets in a general area are being supplied from the same fuel terminal or two, I don't really see quality between outlets being a major issue, except on a volume basis.


Pretty much my situation also. I have Delta Sonic, Speedway (formally Hess) and Tops stations near by and cheap. The nearest Mobil station is always in the highest price category. Can't see spending $.25 to $.30/gal extra.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: Bear
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I have the reverse situation. very limited top tier outlets and a plethora of non top tier outlets. I am not going to go out of my way, more miles, etc to live in the top tier camp. While not arguing that it might be effective to some degree, many of us in my neck of the woods has been filling up a Casey's, Murphy's, Hy-Vee, Kum & Go, etc in my area, which are all non top tier outlets, and we don't experience all the supposed fuel system related problems that some suppose would happen by not doing top tier. And I sure will not pay some inflated price to do top tier.

I have, over the years, been more concerned with volumes the outlets sell rather than some top tier thing. Higher volume fuel outlets will generally have the best, freshest fuel. Since all fuel outlets in a general area are being supplied from the same fuel terminal or two, I don't really see quality between outlets being a major issue, except on a volume basis.


Pretty much my situation also. I have Delta Sonic, Speedway (formally Hess) and Tops stations near by and cheap. The nearest Mobil station is always in the highest price category. Can't see spending $.25 to $.30/gal extra.


On a 20gal tank that's $6. The difference buys a whole lot of Techron (or your choice of fuel system cleaner) with $$ left over.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Yeah, and with my Chevy 2500 and it's 36 gallon fuel tank and average 14 mpg, now we are real expense territory by driving out further to track down TT and paying more for it. Getting the lowest price on my fuel and throwing in a couple of bottle of Techron maybe a couple of times a year, that works for me.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Getting the lowest price on my fuel and throwing in a couple of bottle of Techron maybe a couple of times a year, that works for me.


Me too.

 

[dishdude]

I guess it's regional, around me the lowest priced stations are Top Tier. Just got back from Costco, $1.95/gal

 

[Tdbo]

It is very much a regional thing.
Example: Today in my city, the only TT option BP is $2.29.9.
Speedway (non TT) is $2.09.9. In addition, I can get a 13 cent discount, (3 cents for having their loyalty card plus another 10 cents for using a Speedway Mastercard,) making the price $1.96.9.
Thirty-three cents a gallon differential for 15-18 gallons over several tanks buys a lot of Techron.
.