Silkolene Identifies Base Oils Used in 4T Lineup

[LoneRanger]

I have to hand it to them for being candid in their PAQ (Previously Asked Questions) and apparently telling the base oils used, not blend ratios mind you but at least telling that Group I is used for the Comp 4 range, Group III for the Pro 4 Range, and Group IV PAO for the Pro 4 Plus range. Note from the below that Esters are apparently used as a blend stock in each product with the variant being the base oil Group type (I, III, and IV).

http://www.fuchslubricants.com/previously-asked-questions

About half way down the page:

..."True synthetics are Poly Alpha Olefins and Esters. Our Pro 4 Plus oils are blends of these."

and

"...The Comp 4 range is a blend of esters and mineral (Group 1) oils with good quality additives. The Pro 4 range is a blend of esters, MC (Molecularly Converted - Group 3) oils and top quality additives. MC base oils are considered to be synthetics. These oils have similar characteristics to PAO's (Poly Alpha Olefins) which ARE True synthetics."

and finally regarding the flagship Pro 4 Plus lineup:

"...Pro-4+ is a true 100% ester/PAO synthetic with the most shear stable VI improver polymer available on the planet. (This type of 'true' shear stable synthetic is very rare. We only have 2 or 3 competitors.)"

 

[MinamiKotaro]

Good find.

 

[Robenstein]

Surprised to see anyone using Group 1 these days instead of Group II.

 

[MolaKule]

All oils are blends of various base oils, depending on performance targets.

Quote:
"...Pro-4+ is a true 100% ester/PAO synthetic with the most shear stable VI improver polymer available on the planet. (This type of 'true' shear stable synthetic is very rare. We only have 2 or 3 competitors.)"


I seriously doubt that.

 

[sunruh]

aw come on you dont believe their marketing hype?

 

[Clevy]

Here we go with the "true synthetic" stuff again.
It's no wonder there are people that just regurgitate this stuff back. It's everywhere and most people aren't bitogers and won't dig deeper beyond the marketing.

I used to care about base oils. And I did indeed regurgitate the stuff not really understanding but on soapbox all the same.
Now I don't care. I care about certifications,and how much out of my pocket it costs.
If an oil is certified for an application and costs less than a meets or exceeds its a no brainer. Regardless of components it's the finished product that counts.
If Mobil can do it cheaper than royal purple or castrol etc then I'm buying Mobil. Or if pennzoil is cheaper I'm buying pennzoil.

And if Molekule questions the claims made that should speak volumes to us.

 

[LoneRanger]

If you had a shared sump bike you might care more about base oils. Harley's are awesome bikes, true icons recognized the world over, but they don't put the shearing forces on the oil in the engine the way a shared sump bike does by sharing the oil for the gears, and less of an issue the clutch. Shared sump bikes can benefit from a finished product that is as shear stable as the blender can make it. Silkolene's Pro 4 Plus line looks to be one of those products.

I'm surprised at the back lash. It has been agreed on here in the past that the best synthetic products are a blend of PAO and ester, where the ester blend stock makes up for PAO's short comings and vice versa.

Silkolene is simply laying out the base oils used in their lineup, and yet it gets called marketing hype? How can divulging that Group I mineral oil is used be marketing hype? That is called honesty in my book, because as Robenstein said kind of surprising to admit to using Group I. At least they don't play the Cloak and Dagger secrecy nonsense about it like Amsoil and others, at least they've laid their cards on the table in the PAQ. Show me another company besides maybe Redline whose done the same with regard to openly divulging their base oils per product line.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Surprised to see anyone using Group 1 these days instead of Group II.


There's very little Gp II production and availability in Europe - Gp I is the default go-to mineral base oil.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: weasley
]

There's very little Gp II production and availability in Europe - Gp I is the default go-to mineral base oil.


That is astonishing.

 

[bonjo]

Till about 2005 it was easy for me to pick up FS oil. The labeling was simple and clear: FS, semi and nothing (i.e. mineral).
I think there was some legislation changes in the way oil could be described and we were flooded by new labels containing the word synthetic. A little FS was added to the base mineral oil adding an extra 1~5% to the cost but it was sold a 2~3x the price of the base mineral oil!! There is profit for you.
I have always used FS oil so it became challenging to find what was what.
I had some correspondence with Fuch about this, trying to find out what is FS and what not in their oil lineup. As you rightly pointed out pro 4 plus is there FS range.
What I didn't know is that they also add in POA . I though it was only ester.
If you want to have some fun ask them about double ester motul put on their 300V

 

[LoneRanger]

Kind of [censored] me off a little because before the Spectro which is a PAO/ester FS, I ran Silkolene's Pro 4 (non-plus) which I thought was a full ester synthetic, but turns out it's got a lot of group III hydro-cracked mineral oil in it.

My quest it to identify all 4T JASO MA/MA2 compliant motorcycle oils that are PAO/Ester full syn's with no mineral oil. Elf's Moto Race 4T 10W60 might be, as it used to be named Sport Campione and was, as of a year or two ago, a full PAO/Ester blend.

My goal is to list all Jaso MA/MA2 compliant 4T oils that are true synthetic PAO/Ester blends. So far I have Spectro Platinum and now Silkolene Pro 4 Plus on the list.

 

[bonjo]

Over here (UK), mobil was the first company to introduce synthetic oil (for cars) back in the 80's when the concept of semi did not exist and I have always stuck to them.

Here is what I know:

FS: mobil 1 4T 15/50- I used this before switching to elf as the visc didn't suit my new bike- (confusingly, their 4T 10/40 is semi while in the Us it is FS!!)

FS: elf race 10/60. previous to this they did a FS 4XT tech 10/50 which was the best for my bikes but they stopped marketing it

FS silk pro 4+ (all varians)

FS: motul 7100 & 300V (all varians)

I know castrol do some (their FS 10/30 is what honda recommends for their cbr-RR) and shell also have something.

I didn't care much for their synthetic oil when I tried them in my car engine and went back to mobil 1

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

I think someone made a good point above... if it meets the "spec", who cares what's inside. Could be coconut oil for all I care. Seems like a good thing, that at least the company is being transparent with what's inside. How many other other's do the same?

Either way, I'll stick with my "cheap" Rotella or Delvac HDEO and laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[JonfromCB]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I think someone made a good point above... if it meets the "spec", who cares what's inside. Could be coconut oil for all I care. Seems like a good thing, that at least the company is being transparent with what's inside. How many other other's do the same?

Either way, I'll stick with my "cheap" Rotella or Delvac HDEO and laugh all the way to t
he bank.


While I understand you want to meet specs at the cheapest or most reasonable price point, some of us don't think that way.

I'm with LoneRanger on this one and would also like to have a list of pure PAOs meeting JASO MA2. WHY? you might ask...Simply because years of experience and different makes of bikes have taught me that I really prefer the quieter transmission, snappier shifting, tighter feeling and consistent clutch feel I get during the entire change interval of running a full ester oil in my shared crank/transmission bikes. The simple chemistry of a polar long chain molecule much less prone to shearing in transmissions is a beautiful thing when you're riding for 14-20 days straight and your transmission doesn't get sloppy after the first 2000 miles.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I think someone made a good point above... if it meets the "spec", who cares what's inside. Could be coconut oil for all I care. Seems like a good thing, that at least the company is being transparent with what's inside. How many other other's do the same?

Either way, I'll stick with my "cheap" Rotella or Delvac HDEO and laugh all the way to t
he bank.


While I understand you want to meet specs at the cheapest or most reasonable price point, some of us don't think that way.

I'm with LoneRanger on this one and would also like to have a list of pure PAOs meeting JASO MA2. WHY? you might ask...Simply because years of experience and different makes of bikes have taught me that I really prefer the quieter transmission, snappier shifting, tighter feeling and consistent clutch feel I get during the entire change interval of running a full ester oil in my shared crank/transmission bikes. The simple chemistry of a polar long chain molecule much less prone to shearing in transmissions is a beautiful thing when you're riding for 14-20 days straight and your transmission doesn't get sloppy after the first 2000 miles.


I'm sure there's more to it than just being pure PAO/ester. Motul 300V is pure (from what I understand), so why not use that. Myself, simply can't justify spending 4x the amount on a POA/ester oil, when a HDEO serves me for 2000-3000k miles (in a shared sump, with no loss in shifting).

Maybe if I was going on a long adventure ride... then I'd consider it, to reduce/eliminate oil changes during trip.

 

[JonfromCB]

Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I think someone made a good point above... if it meets the "spec", who cares what's inside. Could be coconut oil for all I care. Seems like a good thing, that at least the company is being transparent with what's inside. How many other other's do the same?

Either way, I'll stick with my "cheap" Rotella or Delvac HDEO and laugh all the way to t
he bank.


While I understand you want to meet specs at the cheapest or most reasonable price point, some of us don't think that way.

I'm with LoneRanger on this one and would also like to have a list of pure PAOs meeting JASO MA2. WHY? you might ask...Simply because years of experience and different makes of bikes have taught me that I really prefer the quieter transmission, snappier shifting, tighter feeling and consistent clutch feel I get during the entire change interval of running a full ester oil in my shared crank/transmission bikes. The simple chemistry of a polar long chain molecule much less prone to shearing in transmissions is a beautiful thing when you're riding for 14-20 days straight and your transmission doesn't get sloppy after the first 2000 miles.


I'm sure there's more to it than just being pure PAO/ester. Motul 300V is pure (from what I understand), so why not use that. Myself, simply can't justify spending 4x the amount on a POA/ester oil, when a HDEO serves me for 2000-3000k miles (in a shared sump, with no loss in shifting).

Maybe if I was going on a long adventure ride... then I'd consider it, to reduce/eliminate oil changes during trip.


Why not use Motul 300V you ask? Because it's formulated for racing older dirt bikes.
Racing oil "runs thin" and has friction modifiers to maximize torque and horsepower. 300v is formulated to run several races over a couple of days and then throw it out. It's not formulated for long use stability, it contains moly and isn't rated JASO MA2 required for the newest clutch materials. In short, no one would put 300V it in a late model performance street or touring machine.

FYI, I used Rotella T-syn/6 in a Goldwing for tens of thousands of miles. The Wing is a low revving, 2 valve, low compression, low HP motor that is easy on oil, BUT the shared transmission is not easy on any oil. Shifting got sloppy after 2-3 K. I Don't like changing oil 3-4 times a season or knowing it's sheared down to a 20 weight while I'm two-up in 90 degree heat. Switching to Redline took care of that, but newer bikes are requiring API/SL, SH, or SI plus JASO MA2. Rotella T-syn meets that BUT it's hydro-cracked group 3 and 10,000 RPM shared sump motorcycle engines shear it down faster than you can say "it's formulated and marketed for diesels and not high rpm engines with shared transmissions" Use what you want, but try to understand why some of us want a list of pure esters rated "SL" and JASO MA2.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

I lost you at "newest clutch materials"... Any non-EC motor oil will work just fine. Motul runs "thin"? Maybe it doesn't meet MA2 ratings (or company is unwilling to pay for cert), but I see no reason it needs to be replaced often... Just because it's popular with racers. We're not talking castor oil here...

 

[JonfromCB]

Yes, I think I lost you at the API ratings, JASO MA2 and the differences between these and the old ratings. MA2 is the newest JASO rating. MA2 oil has no moly which deteriorates many new clutch plate coatings. That's why many new bikes required MA2 spec' oil. Motul 300V is not rated MA2, it's rated MA. Not to be snooty, but perhaps you should read up on the differences between old and new API ratings and the differences between old and new JASO ratings. In a nutshell you can use the newer ratings for previous manufacturer specs, but the older rated oils are not suitable for the newer API and JASO manufacturer specified oil requirements.

Motul 300 is a racing oil for dirt bikes. It's additive package is designed to make
maximum power but has a very short service life because the friction modifiers deteriorate quickly. Contact Motul and they will tell you that, AND that they don't recommend it for street/road bike applications. It's not hard to understand that different applications required oils with different additive packages. Why would anyone 300v it in a street/touring bike when Motul makes 7100 4t series oil at the same price which has an additive package formulated for the longer change intervals of road machines?....plus it meets/exceeds API/SL and JASO MA2. If you want to use 300v in your street bike, go for it, and let us know how those UOAs look after 2000 miles.

My guess is your application doesn't require "SL or MA2" rated oil, so keep using whatever you want and don't worry about why some of us weirdo's want to discuss ester based oils rated SL and MA2.

 

[bonjo]

Your info on 300V is very interesting to me as I plan to use it next!

First of all, over here, 7100 is substantially cheaper than 300V and is reputed to also be sold under the Yamalube badge.

The 300V data sheet does mention racing use but also also street use for bike with CAT. So after reading your comments, I am not sure if I should use it!

So is POA better that ester for oil longetivity in wet clutch bikes?

I had a quick look at MA2/ MA specs some time ago and what I could differentiate was that MA had indeed tighter friction tolerances that MA2 so in my mind MA2 in a MA bike could cause clutch slippage. IS there more to it or something I missed?

And regarding our friend who is not interested what's inside the bottle. Well, it is a personal choice and your money. I am sure we all have preferences on what we want to spend extra on for better quality

 

[cven]

Ma2 = no moly?.... Who say that?

Got a link?


I thought Ma2 was the higher friction part of the Ma spec?