WWYD? LONG - '03 Merc Grand Marquis 4R70W

[tony1679]

My great aunt is selling her '03 Grand Marquis with 105k miles. The car is in great shape minus a bit of a transmission issue. To my knowledge this is a 4R70W (LS Ultimate Edition, shifter on steering column, all digital cluster, no tachometer). My sister is in need of a different car. Her '99 Accord 2.3L has 235k on it (engine and trans are good

, everything else not so much).

Symptoms:
The trans has issues no matter what the temperature, but worse when hot. When I apply virtually no throttle (maintaining an exact speed, say 40mph), there are no problems. When I apply more than ~40% throttle there are no issues. But anywhere between those two ranges (light-normal throttle) the transmission seems to be problematic. 3rd gear seems to be the worst (35-50mph), and the 3-4 shift is sloppy. When shifting between 3-4, it seems to shudder (feels like running over the rumble strips on the shoulder of a highway, but much less severe) as well as hunt for what gear it wants (3rd? 4th? 3rd? No, 4th...). There is NO shudder from a stop. Reverse is fine. No SES/CEL light, no O/D light flashing (I read this is an indicator of a problem on the Marquis).

History:
Pretty much unknown. My aunt can't recall ever servicing the trans

. She is the second owner and had it much longer than the first. What is strange is that the trans fluid does not appear to have 105k on it. It looks like it has 30k on it, maybe 50k at most. It is very red, but definitely hasn't been changed recently. There is some dark stuff in the fluid, nothing scary, and nothing metallic. When wiped on a paper towel it appears very dark, but when held up to sunlight, it is very light. The fluid level is good, if anything it is a tiny bit over the full line. No foaming.

So all that being said, my questions are:

1. What could the transmission issue be?
2. Should my sister purchase this car or look elsewhere?
3. If she does buy it, I will be doing all the maintenance, so what should I do to cure the trans?

 

[SEMI_287]

Torque converter shudder. My 01 Vic does it too. Flushing the trans by the cooler line with fresh Mercon V does the trick. Here is my thread about it. Trav also recommended a bottle of Lubegard red too. Lubegard

The Panther cars are great cars.

 

[Lubener]

Originally Posted By: SEMI_287
Torque converter shudder. My 01 Vic does it too. Flushing the trans by the cooler line with fresh Mercon V does the trick. Here is my thread about it. Trav also recommended a bottle of Lubegard red too. Lubegard

The Panther cars are great cars.


Good advice and usually solves problem. I wouldn't add the Lubeguard immediately, you can always add later. Why add the Lubeguard if the fluid change solves your shudder.

 

[krismoriah72]

Going from a 99 honda accord 4cyl to an 03 grand marquis is a big change.

I would try a tube of Dr. Tranny Instant Shudder Fixx (lubeguard 19610) NAPA carries it.

If it helps then later on down the road, do a trans service and Maxlife ATF fluid swap.

 

[crazyoildude]

change the fluid and filter and use the motorcraft transmission filter and the motorcraft mercon 5 do a few drain and fills... Do it asap. Do not use any miracle fix a trans snale oil... Try this first.

 

[hansj3]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
change the fluid and filter and use the motorcraft transmission filter and the motorcraft mercon 5 do a few drain and fills... Do it asap. Do not use any miracle fix a trans snale oil... Try this first.

Lube guard isn't a snake oil, its well respected, and even recommended by multiple manufacturers. I have personally seen the lubeguard shudder fix work wonders on a bunch of f series and explorers.
But I wouldn't waste it either. I'd at least drain and fill the pan to get some fresher merc v in there as well

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: SEMI_287
Torque converter shudder. My 01 Vic does it too. Flushing the trans by the cooler line with fresh Mercon V does the trick. Here is my thread about it. Trav also recommended a bottle of Lubegard red too. Lubegard

The Panther cars are great cars.


THIS ^^^ Change it fully and you won't need to do multiple changes, will just be wasting good fluid...

 

[69GTX]

I've owned 3 Crown Victoria's and a '98 Grand Marquis. I'm very leery of any transmission vibrations when buying a used one. It's never worked out good for me...never. Personally, I'd walk away from this unless it was dirt cheap and the price of trans rebuild was pretty much covered. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the trans fluid was never changed. And if that's the case, the odds are excellent the trans won't make it past the 125K-150K mile mark. Even if it's been serviced twice, it might have been over 50K miles ago, when your aunt bought the car. I've never had a transmission shudder in any of my automatics...just klunking when changing gears as a tell-tale sign of impending problems.

If she's had any servicing done at a local shop, I'd check them for records. But so many have gone to digital systems in the past 5 years that most earlier records might be gone.

If you can arrange (before you buy it) to do a trans service on the car and see if things clear up, that could work for both parties. With 105K miles this car is no spring chicken. It is 13 years old. So things like brakes, exhaust, window motors, a/c, suspension, emissions, etc. should be starting to pop up. If she was a short tripper that's even worse. There are good values out there on 40K-75K mile '02-'09 Crown Vics, Grand Marquis, etc....that's would I would be looking at for a relatively inexpensive, well-maintained 1 owner used car.

The used car price guides don't give enough credit for low miles. If a seller is going by price guides, they are usually underselling their low mileage car. The guides over-emphasize the model year and cosmetic condition over most everything else. The Grand Marquis would be a fine car with a decent reliability record...but probably with a lot less miles than 105K. If you can accept the potential trans rebuild in the near future, then go for it. The drive trains on those cars can last 200K miles if regularly serviced. My 1988 Crown Vic got to 212K miles when the Trans went. And that was used for light towing by the first owner.

 

[eljefino]

Sounds like a valve body issue. It's trying to grab 4th before letting go of 3rd so it's a smooth, soft shift. I had a 97 that did the same thing. If the clutches aren't fried you might get by with a rebuilt valve body. There are also mods to perk up the shifting, for a cop car or mustang. (google j-mod.)

Though a rebuild is around $1000 where labor is cheap. I'd just go for that so you don't get into finger pointing over warranty issues.

Also take it out at 45 mph in OD and nail the gas to get it to drop into 2nd. This is very complicated for the trans to do, and how horribly it botches it is a good indicator of its general health.

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

Perform a fluid & filter change without doing a flush. Then do several drain & fills. It should help out immensely.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Perform a fluid & filter change without doing a flush. Then do several drain & fills. It should help out immensely.

Yeah, help out sales at the store where you buy it, otherwise you're [censored]' away good fluid...

In 49 years of vehicle ownership I'm yet to see a transmission that a 2nd change fixed a problem... I'd change fluid, give it a week and then add the Lubeguard only if it still has a problem... If that doesn't fix it it's toast...

BTW by '03 Ford had dropped recommendation to service the 4R70W on a regular basis... For std service, says only to inspect condition of fluid at 30Kmi intervals, still by 60K mi it's probably a good idea...

I remember a post here probably three or four years ago by a maintenance guy for a taxi company that used Crown Vics, said they never changed fluid... If trans puked they pulled one from a wreck or one with blown engine... Said they had more issues with 4.6 engines that were regularly serviced than transmissions with no service...

 

[tony1679]

Originally Posted By: SEMI_287
Torque converter shudder. My 01 Vic does it too. Flushing the trans by the cooler line with fresh Mercon V does the trick. Here is my thread about it. Trav also recommended a bottle of Lubegard red too. Lubegard

The Panther cars are great cars.
Wow, I called several transmission shops in the area and they were all unanimous (agreeing with you, maybe except for the lubegard), they said torque converter. Thanks!

Originally Posted By: Lubener
Good advice and usually solves problem. I wouldn't add the Lubeguard immediately, you can always add later. Why add the Lubeguard if the fluid change solves your shudder.
I normally agree with your thoughts. Why spend extra on something you may not need? However in this case, what is $10 when it may cure a $500+ problem. I will think about this...
Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
I would try a tube of Dr. Tranny Instant Shudder Fixx (lubeguard 19610) NAPA carries it.
A few shops did recommend this. I will have to look into this. Thanks!
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
change the fluid and filter and use the motorcraft transmission filter and the motorcraft mercon 5 do a few drain and fills... Do it asap. Do not use any miracle fix a trans snale oil... Try this first.
I'm assuming by "miracle" oil you mean additives like Lucas trans fix, not good additives like Lubegard. If so, don't worry, Lucas is banned from my household's vocabulary (I didn't say it, I typed it lol) But I do plan to change fluid and filter.


69GTX- Thanks for the input. This deal is good enough to entertain, even with trans problems. The rest of the car is in very good shape.


Originally Posted By: eljefino
Sounds like a valve body issue. It's trying to grab 4th before letting go of 3rd so it's a smooth, soft shift. I had a 97 that did the same thing. If the clutches aren't fried you might get by with a rebuilt valve body. There are also mods to perk up the shifting, for a cop car or mustang. (google j-mod.)

Though a rebuild is around $1000 where labor is cheap. I'd just go for that so you don't get into finger pointing over warranty issues.

Also take it out at 45 mph in OD and nail the gas to get it to drop into 2nd. This is very complicated for the trans to do, and how horribly it botches it is a good indicator of its general health.
Thanks for your input, I do value it. Your advice is usually very good. The transmission shops said it is probably a torque converter, but without seeing it, they couldn't rule out a valve body either. A j-mod is not going to happen in this one. I like the idea, but my sister is very much against modifications, and would know if I did it. She did learn some things from me. I will try your 4th to 2nd test, but from what I can remember, it was good. I'll post the results (once I truly know what they are). Thanks

Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Perform a fluid & filter change without doing a flush. Then do several drain & fills. It should help out immensely.
Prior to creating this thread, that was my thought exactly. Still thinking that way.
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Yeah, help out sales at the store where you buy it, otherwise you're [censored]' away good fluid...
To my knowledge (which is limited, I'm not all-knowing) a complete fluid exchange (isn't that the same as a flush?) can potentially do harm. Not because you changed the fluid (changing the fluid is NEVER bad), but because you are 'shocking' the trans. Especially if the old filter was completely clogged, and contaminants made themselves at home in the trans. Take away everything suddenly and issues can arise.

Maybe I'm an idiot spreading an old wives' tale

, but it makes sense to me. Everyone please correct me if I am wrong. But I feel the only harm I'm doing is to my wallet. But if <$100 fixes it, it saves me hundreds, if not thousands. It's worth it to me.

 

[tony1679]

I also have another important question for everyone. Both of these were mentioned by several people/shops:
Originally Posted By: SEMI_287
Trav also recommended a bottle of Lubegard red too.
Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
I would try a tube of Dr. Tranny Instant Shudder Fixx (lubeguard 19610) NAPA carries it.
I know both of these products are made by Lubegard. But I am confused, both are recommended. Should I use only one? Is one preferred the other? Both? Are they even compatible together?

Thanks in advance to anyone that can point me in the right direction.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: tony1679
Not because you changed the fluid (changing the fluid is NEVER bad), but because you are 'shocking' the trans. Especially if the old filter was completely clogged, and contaminants made themselves at home in the trans. Take away everything suddenly and issues can arise.


If filter were completely clogged you'd be walking, it is the entry point for fluid pumped through ought the transmission... There is no bypass unless there was a hole sucked through the media/strainer, whichever it may have...

 

[punisher]

Not gonna read all the replies, some are just painful.

First, shudder- drain ALL fluid, install a new filter, grab 12 quarts of Mercon/Dexron and refill it.

Anytime you have an AODE/4R70W that is having shifting concerns as far as timing or hunting, find someone with a code reader that can read data. Look at the indicated MLP position, watch it for changes when the shifter isn't being moved. Examine the MLP (left side of trans on shifter input). Is it loose, do the little alignment marks match up when in neutral? MLP faults/misalignment is the major cause of shift concerns on those transmissions.

 

[tony1679]

Originally Posted By: punisher
Not gonna read all the replies, some are just painful.

First, shudder- drain ALL fluid, install a new filter, grab 12 quarts of Mercon/Dexron and refill it.

Anytime you have an AODE/4R70W that is having shifting concerns as far as timing or hunting, find someone with a code reader that can read data. Look at the indicated MLP position, watch it for changes when the shifter isn't being moved. Examine the MLP (left side of trans on shifter input). Is it loose, do the little alignment marks match up when in neutral? MLP faults/misalignment is the major cause of shift concerns on those transmissions.
Thanks for the input. If it is having issues after a drain and fill, I will be sure to check this out.

 

[tony1679]

I did have the trans checked by two shops today. Both agree it is minor torque converter shudder. Both agree to NOT replace the converter yet, and to try the fluid change and filter method first. No codes, no gear issues. I does seem like my sister will buy it. Thanks to everyone that chimed in, and I will update and post results.

 

[ford46guy]

Besides TQ issues, could be a misfire. I am very familiar with these cars.

It is very likely time for a tuneup(100K), and some coils may be weak. Be sure to follow all torque specs for replacing plugs.

Also, these cars leak from the intake manifold, allowing coolant to get into the coil wells and short them out. Even if they have the aluminum crossover.

A good scanner that shows mode 6 data will give you the full story. You will not see any codes.

If the car has no tuneup history change the plugs to motorcraft platnium.

 

[FastLane]

My Mustang has the same transmitting. Valvoline max life and a new filter sorted it's shutter out b

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: ford46guy
Besides TQ issues, could be a misfire. I am very familiar with these cars.

It is very likely time for a tuneup(100K), and some coils may be weak. Be sure to follow all torque specs for replacing plugs.

Also, these cars leak from the intake manifold, allowing coolant to get into the coil wells and short them out. Even if they have the aluminum crossover.

A good scanner that shows mode 6 data will give you the full story. You will not see any codes.

If the car has no tuneup history change the plugs to motorcraft platnium.



Bingo! I would definitely look into that.

When you change the transmission fluid, make sure you do a cooler line flush. Up until Job 2 MY2001, these cars had torque converter drain plugs, which were a blessing. They no longer do, and it makes the job messy and lengthy. It is worth it though. Personally, I add half a quart of LubeGard Red.

PS: Use Mercon V only. Don't use a universal fluid that meets the spec - a fluid that just meets Mercon V.