An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion
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Now, will the media be trumpeting his innocence as much as they helped whip up the issue in the first place? One doesn't have to agree with his behaviour. He either broke the law or he did not.
classic illustration of media pumping nothing into something....
The media reaction was basically, to paraphrase Homer Simpson, if there was a law, it would be against it! Of course, these countries get all wound up in the media, but they sure didn't mind whatever money he spent at the time. They should send him his money back. After all, if what he did is so terribly wrong, they shouldn't want any part of it.
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
Originally Posted By: Garak
The media reaction was basically, to paraphrase Homer Simpson, if there was a law, it would be against it! Of course, these countries get all wound up in the media, but they sure didn't mind whatever money he spent at the time. They should send him his money back. After all, if what he did is so terribly wrong, they shouldn't want any part of it.
Of course they kept the money. And all the ridiculous hysteria generated by a pernicious media meant absolutely nothing. But it was one of the best distractions I have ever seen. Worked well, as evidenced by the comments here...
The media reaction was basically, to paraphrase Homer Simpson, if there was a law, it would be against it! Of course, these countries get all wound up in the media, but they sure didn't mind whatever money he spent at the time. They should send him his money back. After all, if what he did is so terribly wrong, they shouldn't want any part of it.
Of course they kept the money. And all the ridiculous hysteria generated by a pernicious media meant absolutely nothing. But it was one of the best distractions I have ever seen. Worked well, as evidenced by the comments here...
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
What are you doing to help out those countries financially? Exactly. Nothing. Lets let those people judge what they do over there. Each hunter's tens of thousands of dollars pumped into the economy means a lot more than the hot air being pumped out people's mouths over here. If you did any research you'd also understand that hunting only helps with conservation. Ban hunting and animals are seen as a nuisance instead of an asset. Then the locals become poachers instead of guides.
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
What are you doing to help out those countries financially? Exactly. Nothing. Lets let those people judge what they do over there. Each hunter's tens of thousands of dollars pumped into the economy means a lot more than the hot air being pumped out people's mouths over here. If you did any research you'd also understand that hunting only helps with conservation. Ban hunting and animals are seen as a nuisance instead of an asset. Then the locals become poachers instead of guides.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass.
You sound exactly like me re: Brady!
Now I will sound like you. If he was legal and thus did nothing illegal what is there to get upset over or dislike? There is no pass to be given if he did nothing wrong right? he had all his papers in order and conducted a legal( to his knowledge )hunt. If that bothers you then it is because you are clearly anti hunting and it has nothing to do with this person specifically.
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass.
You sound exactly like me re: Brady!
Now I will sound like you. If he was legal and thus did nothing illegal what is there to get upset over or dislike? There is no pass to be given if he did nothing wrong right? he had all his papers in order and conducted a legal( to his knowledge )hunt. If that bothers you then it is because you are clearly anti hunting and it has nothing to do with this person specifically.
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Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Rather than start a new thread on this I am going to add it here. While this isn't about the dentist, or even how Cecil was shot, it IS relevant as it took place in the same refuge and it shows just how dangerous Lions are. I hope this adds some perspective to some folks views here( in general ). Although I bet the animal rights groups will applaud this Lion killing the man as some kind of payback for Cecil's death.
All these people talking about the poor Lion( media and in this thread )seem clueless about how dangerous they really are. It truly is the Bambi syndrome. The way they talked about Cecil the Lion made him sound like some kind of tame house cat, or they put him up on some pedestal of animal nobility, and it is just ridiculous.
A photography tour guide was mauled and killed by a Lion in the same refuge Cecil was from. This could have been Cecil himself in other circumstances. Lions are not cute, cuddly, kittens nor are the noble, royal, animals. They are vicious predators who will kill anyone or anything with no provocation and at the drop of a hat. So while people can be upset at Cecil's death let's keep some perspective on just what Cecil was. People that live around Lions know. The rest of the world seems clueless.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/25/africa/zimbabwe-safari-guide-killed-by-lion/
Should we exterminate all predators then, even though they serve a purpose in their respective ecosystems (keeping the balance, population control, the way nature intended)? Should we kill everything that's scary, dangerous, or not cute?
I don't think people were upset because they were planning to adopt Cecil as a house cat. I think most people know lions are dangerous.
If you are a tour guide in a park featuring wild predators, guess what might happen? Hopefully a human can consider and weigh the risks of doing a job that can be dangerous. If it weren't for the dangerous animals, the tour guide's job wouldn't have existed! Who wants to take a tour of a wildlife park with nothing in it? It sucks for the tour guide, but if you play with fire... I certainly don't wish it on him, but hopefully he knew the risks of what he was doing.
People make choices, animals follow instincts. Big difference.
Rather than start a new thread on this I am going to add it here. While this isn't about the dentist, or even how Cecil was shot, it IS relevant as it took place in the same refuge and it shows just how dangerous Lions are. I hope this adds some perspective to some folks views here( in general ). Although I bet the animal rights groups will applaud this Lion killing the man as some kind of payback for Cecil's death.
All these people talking about the poor Lion( media and in this thread )seem clueless about how dangerous they really are. It truly is the Bambi syndrome. The way they talked about Cecil the Lion made him sound like some kind of tame house cat, or they put him up on some pedestal of animal nobility, and it is just ridiculous.
A photography tour guide was mauled and killed by a Lion in the same refuge Cecil was from. This could have been Cecil himself in other circumstances. Lions are not cute, cuddly, kittens nor are the noble, royal, animals. They are vicious predators who will kill anyone or anything with no provocation and at the drop of a hat. So while people can be upset at Cecil's death let's keep some perspective on just what Cecil was. People that live around Lions know. The rest of the world seems clueless.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/25/africa/zimbabwe-safari-guide-killed-by-lion/
Should we exterminate all predators then, even though they serve a purpose in their respective ecosystems (keeping the balance, population control, the way nature intended)? Should we kill everything that's scary, dangerous, or not cute?
I don't think people were upset because they were planning to adopt Cecil as a house cat. I think most people know lions are dangerous.
If you are a tour guide in a park featuring wild predators, guess what might happen? Hopefully a human can consider and weigh the risks of doing a job that can be dangerous. If it weren't for the dangerous animals, the tour guide's job wouldn't have existed! Who wants to take a tour of a wildlife park with nothing in it? It sucks for the tour guide, but if you play with fire... I certainly don't wish it on him, but hopefully he knew the risks of what he was doing.
People make choices, animals follow instincts. Big difference.
I read that he and the guides lured the lion from a protected area so he would be killed in a legal area. The guides were put in jail because of that. The dentist pleaded ignorance. The dentists history is one of trying to circumvent the law and he was caught before doing this. He is a [censored] as often labeled. Ed
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
I didn't say I agreed with what he did. But, everyone vilified him and all the talk was about charging him and extraditing him and drawing and quartering him. Clearly, there's no legal framework to do any of those things.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I didn't say I agreed with what he did. But, everyone vilified him and all the talk was about charging him and extraditing him and drawing and quartering him. Clearly, there's no legal framework to do any of those things.
But the law doesn't matter. He should be punished because the media says so...
I didn't say I agreed with what he did. But, everyone vilified him and all the talk was about charging him and extraditing him and drawing and quartering him. Clearly, there's no legal framework to do any of those things.
But the law doesn't matter. He should be punished because the media says so...
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it! However it appears the 'they' deliberately lured it outside of the protected area so that it could be 'legally' killed. The guy is an ******** and I hope he gets what he deserves someday soon.
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it! However it appears the 'they' deliberately lured it outside of the protected area so that it could be 'legally' killed. The guy is an ******** and I hope he gets what he deserves someday soon.
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Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it! However it appears the 'they' deliberately lured it outside of the protected area so that it could be 'legally' killed. The guy is an ******** and I hope he gets what he deserves someday soon.
So, to open that can of worms, what do you feel it is that he deserves?
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it! However it appears the 'they' deliberately lured it outside of the protected area so that it could be 'legally' killed. The guy is an ******** and I hope he gets what he deserves someday soon.
So, to open that can of worms, what do you feel it is that he deserves?
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it! However it appears the 'they' deliberately lured it outside of the protected area so that it could be 'legally' killed. The guy is an ******** and I hope he gets what he deserves someday soon.
We don't know he( the dentist )knew that was happening though. People are assuming he knew. Unless we know for sure he was aware of it then he did nothing wrong by relying on his guide. Blame the guide if you want but this was someone from the US hunting in Africa and I will definitely give him the benefit of the doubt even with his less than ethical past. Can't really expect a guy from one continent to know exact locations on another. That is why you hire a guide to begin with. I would feel the same if this was an African hunter here in the US with a guide and something similar happened.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
By Zimbabwe's laws he isn't guilty, but what he and his guide did wasn't acceptable either.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it! However it appears the 'they' deliberately lured it outside of the protected area so that it could be 'legally' killed. The guy is an ******** and I hope he gets what he deserves someday soon.
We don't know he( the dentist )knew that was happening though. People are assuming he knew. Unless we know for sure he was aware of it then he did nothing wrong by relying on his guide. Blame the guide if you want but this was someone from the US hunting in Africa and I will definitely give him the benefit of the doubt even with his less than ethical past. Can't really expect a guy from one continent to know exact locations on another. That is why you hire a guide to begin with. I would feel the same if this was an African hunter here in the US with a guide and something similar happened.
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Rather than start a new thread on this I am going to add it here. While this isn't about the dentist, or even how Cecil was shot, it IS relevant as it took place in the same refuge and it shows just how dangerous Lions are. I hope this adds some perspective to some folks views here( in general ). Although I bet the animal rights groups will applaud this Lion killing the man as some kind of payback for Cecil's death.
All these people talking about the poor Lion( media and in this thread )seem clueless about how dangerous they really are. It truly is the Bambi syndrome. The way they talked about Cecil the Lion made him sound like some kind of tame house cat, or they put him up on some pedestal of animal nobility, and it is just ridiculous.
A photography tour guide was mauled and killed by a Lion in the same refuge Cecil was from. This could have been Cecil himself in other circumstances. Lions are not cute, cuddly, kittens nor are the noble, royal, animals. They are vicious predators who will kill anyone or anything with no provocation and at the drop of a hat. So while people can be upset at Cecil's death let's keep some perspective on just what Cecil was. People that live around Lions know. The rest of the world seems clueless.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/25/africa/zimbabwe-safari-guide-killed-by-lion/
Should we exterminate all predators then, even though they serve a purpose in their respective ecosystems (keeping the balance, population control, the way nature intended)? Should we kill everything that's scary, dangerous, or not cute?
I don't think people were upset because they were planning to adopt Cecil as a house cat. I think most people know lions are dangerous.
If you are a tour guide in a park featuring wild predators, guess what might happen? Hopefully a human can consider and weigh the risks of doing a job that can be dangerous. If it weren't for the dangerous animals, the tour guide's job wouldn't have existed! Who wants to take a tour of a wildlife park with nothing in it? It sucks for the tour guide, but if you play with fire... I certainly don't wish it on him, but hopefully he knew the risks of what he was doing.
People make choices, animals follow instincts. Big difference.
Your post is the exact type of overreaction so typical in this entire thread. No where did I advocate exterminating all predators nor adopting Lions like kittens. I want people to use their common sense and wake up to the fact this was a savage, brutal, predator not some Disney character out of the Lion King. People are treating that Lion as something more than what it was. It is the Disney movie syndrome. They see that Lion almost like a character out of the Lion King. The same way people see Deer here in the US in a way influenced by the movie Bambi. Totally unrealistic. If you think I am wrong you haven't been yelled at by anti hunters accusing you of shooting "Bambi" or some other Disney character.
Those movies are not an accurate representation of wildlife. They make people see them as things they are not. Especially Lions. Lions are not majestic, noble, regal animals. They are brutal, vicious, killers that would take out a human without a second thought. People either forget that or just don't know it.
People are outraged over what happened due to moral objections to hunting period and also because they have elevated that Lion to something it is not. Their emotions are in play and not their brains. The objections and levels of vitriol go far beyond what actually happened.
Don't misunderstand I am 100% AGAINST poaching. Anyone in that incident who knowingly took place in luring that Lion out of a protected area into a legal area to harvest it should be prosecuted. That is where my indignation ends though. I don't have objections to legal hunting as so many do( and that is ultimately behind their anger )nor do I start talking about the poor Lion and how majestic they are and so on. The fact this particular Lion had a name given to it in the refuge is another reason people are elevating that Lion's importance. We wouldn't have heard much of anything about it if it was a different Lion. But oh boy, it was Cecil so the world is in an uproar. The fact it was Cecil makes it no more or less wrong and tragic.
I also know that given the chance that Lion would have taken out humans without pause just as the one in the link I provided did( and in the exact same preserve Cecil was in ). There ARE people who would be shocked if that happened. I can hear it now..." I can't believe Cecil did that...he was such a noble and peaceful animal". People these days have no clue about wildlife and how savage it can be. I was trying to add some perspective to peoples rants is all.
The hunter had all his paperwork in order and was legally hunting. I have seen no proof he was aware of any illegal acts and when he took the Lion he thought he was doing so legally. He is not going to be prosecuted. The guide it appears illegally lured the Lion out of the preserve to a place the hunter could take it yet there is no proof the hunter knew he was doing it. So this whole story is blown out of proportion and is very misleading( as is the norm with today's media manipulating the facts to suit their agendas ). Cecil has become more than just a Lion that was poached( which is awful - again don't misunderstand me and take my comments as apathy ). People have emotionalized this whole thing and it is out of control.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Rather than start a new thread on this I am going to add it here. While this isn't about the dentist, or even how Cecil was shot, it IS relevant as it took place in the same refuge and it shows just how dangerous Lions are. I hope this adds some perspective to some folks views here( in general ). Although I bet the animal rights groups will applaud this Lion killing the man as some kind of payback for Cecil's death.
All these people talking about the poor Lion( media and in this thread )seem clueless about how dangerous they really are. It truly is the Bambi syndrome. The way they talked about Cecil the Lion made him sound like some kind of tame house cat, or they put him up on some pedestal of animal nobility, and it is just ridiculous.
A photography tour guide was mauled and killed by a Lion in the same refuge Cecil was from. This could have been Cecil himself in other circumstances. Lions are not cute, cuddly, kittens nor are the noble, royal, animals. They are vicious predators who will kill anyone or anything with no provocation and at the drop of a hat. So while people can be upset at Cecil's death let's keep some perspective on just what Cecil was. People that live around Lions know. The rest of the world seems clueless.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/25/africa/zimbabwe-safari-guide-killed-by-lion/
Should we exterminate all predators then, even though they serve a purpose in their respective ecosystems (keeping the balance, population control, the way nature intended)? Should we kill everything that's scary, dangerous, or not cute?
I don't think people were upset because they were planning to adopt Cecil as a house cat. I think most people know lions are dangerous.
If you are a tour guide in a park featuring wild predators, guess what might happen? Hopefully a human can consider and weigh the risks of doing a job that can be dangerous. If it weren't for the dangerous animals, the tour guide's job wouldn't have existed! Who wants to take a tour of a wildlife park with nothing in it? It sucks for the tour guide, but if you play with fire... I certainly don't wish it on him, but hopefully he knew the risks of what he was doing.
People make choices, animals follow instincts. Big difference.
Your post is the exact type of overreaction so typical in this entire thread. No where did I advocate exterminating all predators nor adopting Lions like kittens. I want people to use their common sense and wake up to the fact this was a savage, brutal, predator not some Disney character out of the Lion King. People are treating that Lion as something more than what it was. It is the Disney movie syndrome. They see that Lion almost like a character out of the Lion King. The same way people see Deer here in the US in a way influenced by the movie Bambi. Totally unrealistic. If you think I am wrong you haven't been yelled at by anti hunters accusing you of shooting "Bambi" or some other Disney character.
Those movies are not an accurate representation of wildlife. They make people see them as things they are not. Especially Lions. Lions are not majestic, noble, regal animals. They are brutal, vicious, killers that would take out a human without a second thought. People either forget that or just don't know it.
People are outraged over what happened due to moral objections to hunting period and also because they have elevated that Lion to something it is not. Their emotions are in play and not their brains. The objections and levels of vitriol go far beyond what actually happened.
Don't misunderstand I am 100% AGAINST poaching. Anyone in that incident who knowingly took place in luring that Lion out of a protected area into a legal area to harvest it should be prosecuted. That is where my indignation ends though. I don't have objections to legal hunting as so many do( and that is ultimately behind their anger )nor do I start talking about the poor Lion and how majestic they are and so on. The fact this particular Lion had a name given to it in the refuge is another reason people are elevating that Lion's importance. We wouldn't have heard much of anything about it if it was a different Lion. But oh boy, it was Cecil so the world is in an uproar. The fact it was Cecil makes it no more or less wrong and tragic.
I also know that given the chance that Lion would have taken out humans without pause just as the one in the link I provided did( and in the exact same preserve Cecil was in ). There ARE people who would be shocked if that happened. I can hear it now..." I can't believe Cecil did that...he was such a noble and peaceful animal". People these days have no clue about wildlife and how savage it can be. I was trying to add some perspective to peoples rants is all.
The hunter had all his paperwork in order and was legally hunting. I have seen no proof he was aware of any illegal acts and when he took the Lion he thought he was doing so legally. He is not going to be prosecuted. The guide it appears illegally lured the Lion out of the preserve to a place the hunter could take it yet there is no proof the hunter knew he was doing it. So this whole story is blown out of proportion and is very misleading( as is the norm with today's media manipulating the facts to suit their agendas ). Cecil has become more than just a Lion that was poached( which is awful - again don't misunderstand me and take my comments as apathy ). People have emotionalized this whole thing and it is out of control.
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Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it!
If that's the case, you'd think that they would have made such behaviour illegal ages ago. Given the historical problem the country has had with poaching, you'd think some attention would have been paid. And, given their form of government, it's not like they'd be needing a consensus or study or a referendum, either.
As I said, he either violated the law or he did not. We don't have to agree with his behaviour, but you can't legally sanction someone for not breaking the law.
From what I gather he isn't guilty because he killed the animal outside the protected area, that's it!
If that's the case, you'd think that they would have made such behaviour illegal ages ago. Given the historical problem the country has had with poaching, you'd think some attention would have been paid. And, given their form of government, it's not like they'd be needing a consensus or study or a referendum, either.
As I said, he either violated the law or he did not. We don't have to agree with his behaviour, but you can't legally sanction someone for not breaking the law.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
Lions are to the people of Zimbabwe like black bears are to the people of Minnesota. Hundred of bears are taken legally each year in Minnesota.
What's the difference between taking deer, bears, lions, pheasants, moose, geese?
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
Lions are to the people of Zimbabwe like black bears are to the people of Minnesota. Hundred of bears are taken legally each year in Minnesota.
What's the difference between taking deer, bears, lions, pheasants, moose, geese?
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Originally Posted By: 757guy
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
Lions are to the people of Zimbabwe like black bears are to the people of Minnesota. Hundred of bears are taken legally each year in Minnesota.
What's the difference between taking deer, bears, lions, pheasants, moose, geese?
I have no obligation to explain anything to you. I don't like the guy. Most people in the world don't like him. If he has to take crud from people for the rest of his life, well that's just part of living in a free informed society.
Things are changing. The number of rednecks is far outnumbered by animal lovers and that disparity is only going to get larger as time progresses.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
OK fine. He's legal. Doesn't mean we have to like it or give him a pass. Doesn't mean I should get my teeth cleaned there.
Its legal in some countries to stone women to death for infidelity.
Legal yea
Lions are to the people of Zimbabwe like black bears are to the people of Minnesota. Hundred of bears are taken legally each year in Minnesota.
What's the difference between taking deer, bears, lions, pheasants, moose, geese?
I have no obligation to explain anything to you. I don't like the guy. Most people in the world don't like him. If he has to take crud from people for the rest of his life, well that's just part of living in a free informed society.
Things are changing. The number of rednecks is far outnumbered by animal lovers and that disparity is only going to get larger as time progresses.
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