Cold flow here is overrated

[Srt20]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


He plugs in the truck so it doesn't matter anyways. I touched on this either earlier in this thread or another. Anything will work fine of it is pre-heated, LOL!


I've always wondered how much water jacket heaters warm the oil. I suspect not that much. So it could matter if a 10w or 15w oil is used.



Originally Posted By: Tiredtrucker

And I lived in the interior of Alaska for 10 years. Never used anything other than a 5w30 in my personal stuff and never had any motor issues or failures. Granted, when it was averaging around -35F or lower, you can be sure that the block heater was plugged in, the oil pan heater was plugged in, and the battery blanket was plugged in. Never had any starting issues down to -72F, the lowest temp I ever experienced.

And I am sure that warm coolant warms the oil. And would warm it more as soon as it was pumped into a warm block.

But hey, let me check that for you this winter with the Charger (the '06) since it measures oil temp and has block heater.



When I plug mine in the oil temp is significantly affected during winter.
I can't say for sure if the oil has its own mechanism as far as being heated or if it's just radiant from the block heater itself.
the difference was in the neighbourhood of 30c. So if it was -30c a,Binet the evic stated oil temp was 0.
But again I don't know if the heat is just a bi-product of the block heater.

The location of the oil temp sensor will also play into this. If it's in the block, or heads, it will be warmer already from the block heater.

I live in WI. I rarely use the block heater on my truck. There is absolutely no doubt my starter spins the engine faster in below zero temps with 5w-40 in it, vs 15w-40. No oil temp gauge in the truck. Water temp reads 70-80F when plugged in.

I was up north maybe 10 years back with my old CTD truck in -35F temps. The truck sat for a couple days outside not plugged in. When I went to leave, the starter could not spin the engine fast enough to start it. Batteries were both in excellent condition. I had to have it plugged in for a couple hours just to get it to fire. Then it ran on 3cylinder high idle for 45 mins. 15w-40 oil.

Ever prime an oil pump with a drill? Oil is hard to pump, even at 70* F

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Srt20
I live in WI. I rarely use the block heater on my truck. There is absolutely no doubt my starter spins the engine faster in below zero temps with 5w-40 in it, vs 15w-40. No oil temp gauge in the truck. Water temp reads 70-80F when plugged in.


No doubt about it whatsoever...e.g. in the engine tested here (gasser), 55 RPM was the min start speed...achieved at about 0F with a 15W, and 20-30 degrees below that with a 5W (The F was friction modified)

Originally Posted By: Srt20
I was up north maybe 10 years back with my old CTD truck in -35F temps. The truck sat for a couple days outside not plugged in. When I went to leave, the starter could not spin the engine fast enough to start it. Batteries were both in excellent condition. I had to have it plugged in for a couple hours just to get it to fire. Then it ran on 3cylinder high idle for 45 mins. 15w-40 oil.

Ever prime an oil pump with a drill? Oil is hard to pump, even at 70* F


Two slightly different things, the CCS part of the "W" specification is the cold cranking simulator, designed as a high shear test regime, to simulate the bearings and the pistons under cranking conditions (drag between moving parts, stationary parts, and the oil between them).

That's the load on the starter, while that on the oil pump drive is mass flow times pressure differential (plus an efficiency factor)...different things.

The hard cranking after 3 days is typically wax crystal growth, making the oil more solid than liquid after a long time at cold temps.

 

[Garak]

Personally, in the worst conditions, I like having an oil pan heater in conjunction with the block heater. Some say they don't do much. I dare them to grab an oil pan heater's face when it's plugged in and on the vehicle in -40 weather. They won't do it a second time.

 

[Shannow]

Garak, I get you.

I took this photo of a Nissan in Sierra Vista, the day before we drove to Tombstone.

Being a current model Navara, meant a half hour explaining the plates, the location, and the cord to my children.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Personally, in the worst conditions, I like having an oil pan heater in conjunction with the block heater. Some say they don't do much. I dare them to grab an oil pan heater's face when it's plugged in and on the vehicle in -40 weather. They won't do it a second time.


+1 on the block heater, they get pretty hot! IMO for colder climates nothing beats the block heater/oil pan heater combo.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: WillB
Cold flow is not over rated when it is -40, synthetics make starting easier. Even more so when block heaters are not used.



You'll find that the majority of BITOG folk preaching cold flow live south of the Ohio River. -40*F doesnt happen much.


Yeah, and it is amazing the number of folks who confuse real temp with wind chill temp, which only affects exposed skin. Most areas of the Continental U.S. hardly ever see -30F let alone -40F. A few places, but very few. I travel the Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Indiana areas all year round, and do the Dakota's occasionally. I never have any problem with start up issues with 15w40 in my semi engine. Now, due to leg pulling by my oil supplier, I will give 10w30 a shot this winter. But my pickup will never see anything more than 5w30. I have no interest is going with the 0wXX oils or even worrying about it.

Do you never have a true cold start? 15W40 has a pour point around -20F, so I don't think it would pump very well for quite a while with a few gallons of it sitting like toffee in the motor? Sure, a few starts won't cause huge damage, but its got to be hard on the starter and oil pump atleast and not something I would regularly do.
I've only done a couple starts with a sump full of 5W30 near its pour point temperature(-38C) and the motor sounded terrible for quite a while. The cars did live to a ripe old age, but I don't think they would with regular torture like that.


Well not true cold start. I do plug in the semi once temps get below zero. My question would by why wouldn't anyone else do similar, even on a timer sort of setup? They let their vehicle sit out in the driveway just feet from an electrical outlet, yet they will play games with oil viscosities and not even take the time to have a block heater or oil pan heater on when it is -20F. And folks consider me stupid for not going with a 0wXX oil. Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a cat. One of the things I learned while living in Alaska for 10 years was to not be stupid with my vehicles. If others want to start their motor cold at -30F without using a block heater and such, have at it. I use what is smart to use. I don't rely only on an oil viscosity to make all things right and make up for my incompetence.

You say that 15w40 has a pour point of around -20F. My oil supplier says it has a pour point of -35F on their tech sheet. Of course, it is a blend. And I rarely see temps below -20F in the winter and they are not long lived. Most times temps average in the 0F range for me. And if the truth is told, most of the folks who talk about -40F start temps do not have them very often. Those are extreme temps usually that do not stay on very long. We all can agree that Fargo ND has some pretty cold temps in winter, but even there, the AVERAGE high is 18F with the AVERAGE low 0F in January. So while they may get a few days of cold snaps that dip down pretty well, most days are not that cold.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Personally, in the worst conditions, I like having an oil pan heater in conjunction with the block heater. Some say they don't do much. I dare them to grab an oil pan heater's face when it's plugged in and on the vehicle in -40 weather. They won't do it a second time.


That's right. I am a big fan of oil pan heaters. Got sold on using them, and battery blanket warmers, when I live near Fairbanks AK for most of the 80's and early 90's. I would plug in the block heater, oil pan heater, battery blanket and the motor would start like a warm summers day at -50F. That is why it is so confusing to me, why folks who actually have to deal with some serious cold temps don't do similar. They will jump up an down about a 0 or 5 cold flow rating and worship at their favorite oil alter, but they will not do one of the simplest and most cost effective mods that will help their engine more than anything else... a block heater and oil pan heater. On a timer, hardly a bump in the electric bill. But will more than return it's cost in protecting an engine.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker


Well not true cold start. I do plug in the semi once temps get below zero. My question would by why wouldn't anyone else do similar, even on a timer sort of setup? They let their vehicle sit out in the driveway just feet from an electrical outlet, yet they will play games with oil viscosities and not even take the time to have a block heater or oil pan heater on when it is -20F. And folks consider me stupid for not going with a 0wXX oil. Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a cat. One of the things I learned while living in Alaska for 10 years was to not be stupid with my vehicles. If others want to start their motor cold at -30F without using a block heater and such, have at it. I use what is smart to use. I don't rely only on an oil viscosity to make all things right and make up for my incompetence.

You say that 15w40 has a pour point of around -20F. My oil supplier says it has a pour point of -35F on their tech sheet.


The point is that the thread is about the oil's cold flow capabilities and if you are pre-heating the oil and coolant that becomes massively less relevant and makes your points about the ability for 15w-40 to "work" during the winter moot.

I encounter situations where I simply cannot plug my vehicle in during the winter. My office has no external outlets for vehicles and many of the hotels I encounter when I travel don't either. The only option in those situations is to be prepared, which for me, involves having a strong battery and a lubricant in the pan that is appropriate for the temperatures encountered.

Regarding the pour point, that figure really isn't relevant either. A 15w-xx lubricant meets the CCS requirements at -20C and the MRV requirements at -25C. That means that at -25C it is above the CCS limit and at -30C it is above the MRV limits (otherwise it would classify as a 10w-xx). This means that it will effect the ability for the engine to crank below -20C and may not pump below -25C.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Being a current model Navara, meant a half hour explaining the plates, the location, and the cord to my children.

I prefer to hang the cord under the hood. I've always done a lot of highway miles and a cord flapping around in the wind never does any favours for one's finish.

TiredTrucker and Overkill: That's why I'm spoiled by my heated garage. I still have a couple oil pan heaters and the like kicking around, and my F-150 rarely gets any "inside time." The G37 gets the heated garage and can often park indoors at one of my businesses. That being said, I still want something that flows decently when the weather drops hard. And of course, one has to deal with one's own situation. If you cannot plug in at work and you're there for 8 or more hours, it's obviously important to have an oil with good cold flow and a strong battery if you're facing a really ugly day.

As for battery blankets, I prefer the really small, semi-permanent mount chargers. They accomplish at least as much as a warmer, while being fairly easy on the power. And they also come in handy as a maintenance charger if during the summer the vehicle is relegated to a lot of sitting.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

You say that 15w40 has a pour point of around -20F. My oil supplier says it has a pour point of -35F on their tech sheet. Of course, it is a blend. And I rarely see temps below -20F in the winter and they are not long lived. Most times temps average in the 0F range for me. And if the truth is told, most of the folks who talk about -40F start temps do not have them very often. Those are extreme temps usually that do not stay on very long. We all can agree that Fargo ND has some pretty cold temps in winter, but even there, the AVERAGE high is 18F with the AVERAGE low 0F in January. So while they may get a few days of cold snaps that dip down pretty well, most days are not that cold.


I get what you are saying, but averages can be a bit misleading.

to use your example above, in Fargo ND, if the average low in any given month is Zero, then -- on the average -- there are going to be about 15 days in that month that are below zero. those 15 days could all come in a row too.

Living in the northern part of the Midwest, I'd say that February is typically our coldest month. Going to your example of Fargo, that holds true as well.

looking at Fargo in feb. of this year there were 16 days that were below zero for the low. two of them were -19F, two of them were -17F, nine total were colder than -10F.

on the average, the low was only -2F, but half the month was below zero, and half of those days were below -10F.

that's a climate where cold flow should not be overlooked.

ours here is not that much different, which is why I made the original comment about a 0w for a cold weather vehicle. sometimes it really can be that important. when I need the truck to start, it HAS to start, or I'm screwed for several days until it warms up enough that it will start.

last year with the 5w-30 I noticed a big difference in the frigid cold. it would always start, but with 10w-30 it would often stall several times before it would run on it's own. that never happened with the 5w30, it would start and always stay running.

I do think I'm going to try some 0w-30 this year, if nothing else, just for fun. I keep a battery tender on the truck, but it doesn't have a heater of any kind. I used to put a magnetic heater on the oil pan, but crawling under it on a dirt floor gets old quickly, so I'd often just not do it and let it deal with the cold start.

this has been a good discussion......

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
How is 0W "best" for temperatures barely freezing ?
Motor oil university.

 

[Garak]

...which has many glaring errors.

 

[TiredTrucker]

In the final analysis, let's ask the engine. I had a Cummins N-14 in a previous semi truck. It got a fill of Kendall 15w40 conventional at every 30,000 mile oil change. It covered the same territory I cover with my last semi and the one I have now. The upper Midwest, Nebraska to Ohio, from I-70 north to the Canadian border. Year round. I put 1.4 million miles on that motor by the time it got sold, only issues were 1 injector replaced and an accessory drive seal replaced. The motor still ran great, used about 1 gallon of oil every 8,000 miles, and immediately went to work for the next owner. And that one only had a block heater, not a oil pan heater.

My last, a Cummins ISX got close to a million when I sold it. It got put right to work also, and even passed me one day on I-74 heading to Indianapolis about 2 months after I sold it. My present truck with a Detroit 60 factory rebuilt, the same thing. Just shy of 500,000 miles on the rebuild and it uses 2 qts of oil in 25,000 miles, still outdoes the nationwide OTR trucking average mpg by 20%, and will put to shame just about any of the new emission motors yanking freight around today. And yep, it has gotten a 15w40, year round, same territory.

While all the CCS numbers, cold flow pour points, and all the other little things that make for interesting discussions fit nice and neat into a lab setting and technical banter, what actually is done out in the real world may not fit the modeling quite as neat as some would like. That's ok. The only thing I have to satisfy is my engines. And they seem to do quite nicely and maximize my profits. Must be doing something right, even if it is not BITOG politically correct.

And while I did say that I plug in the block and pan heaters, that is when it sits at home on the weekend. Out on the road, I have the same issues as anyone else.... no plug in. Guess what? The engines have done just fine on a 15w40 to the tune of the longevity I mentioned above. So, that should dispel any criticism that I am not playing on a level field in this discussion. And no, I don't leave the truck idling all the time in the winter. That is stupid. 1 gallon per hour of fuel out the stack, 10 hrs a day, 5 days a week, are you crazy?

 

[dlundblad]

It was 47*F this evening when I left work. If I had 0w30 in the sump, my Jeep would have started easier.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
While all the CCS numbers, cold flow pour points, and all the other little things that make for interesting discussions fit nice and neat into a lab setting and technical banter, what actually is done out in the real world may not fit the modeling quite as neat as some would like. That's ok. The only thing I have to satisfy is my engines. And they seem to do quite nicely and maximize my profits. Must be doing something right, even if it is not BITOG politically correct.


That's why I like the paper I linked to here
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._of#Post3846292

The US Army was testing what the 15W40s could actually DO in cold weather rather than what they needed to change it to.

 

[HTSS_TR]

It was 98F at 6 PM here in So Cal, down to 85F at 8 PM. We will have another 90+ tomorrow, and will not get below 90 until Wednesday.

We could use straight 30-40 all year.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
It was 98F at 6 PM here in So Cal, down to 85F at 8 PM. We will have another 90+ tomorrow, and will not get below 90 until Wednesday.

We could use straight 30-40 all year.


LOL, it's what I've been saying for a decade...before the board got hijacked by 0W.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

And while I did say that I plug in the block and pan heaters, that is when it sits at home on the weekend. Out on the road, I have the same issues as anyone else.... no plug in. Guess what? The engines have done just fine on a 15w40 to the tune of the longevity I mentioned above. So, that should dispel any criticism that I am not playing on a level field in this discussion. And no, I don't leave the truck idling all the time in the winter. That is stupid. 1 gallon per hour of fuel out the stack, 10 hrs a day, 5 days a week, are you crazy?


But you also stated:

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Well, my semis have operated in upper Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan on a regular basis year round. They have never failed to start on a cold morning with 15w40. To be fair, without access to a outlet for the block heater, I will start it up for about a half hour every 4 hrs or so in extreme cold.


Nobody is saying that 15w-40 is going to negatively affect longevity, simply that using it below the temperatures it is rated for without a heating device isn't wise and has the POSSIBILITY to create a no start condition due to its affect on cranking ability (CCS) or engine damage due to the lubricant not pumping (MRV).

The conditions needed to make a 0w-xx "necessary" starts at an unaided (no heating devices, stone cold engine) -35C start.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
It was 98F at 6 PM here in So Cal, down to 85F at 8 PM. We will have another 90+ tomorrow, and will not get below 90 until Wednesday.

We could use straight 30-40 all year.


LOL, it's what I've been saying for a decade...before the board got hijacked by 0W.
It appears a lot of syn 10w-30s are similar to straight 30s regarding oil formulation.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
In the final analysis, let's ask the engine. ...snip...


That's exactly what I was trying to get at only I guess I'm on the other side of the coin.

With 10w30 it will start and stall several times before running on its own. It didn't do that with 5w30.

My guess is that the engine can't make enough power in the cold to sustain an idle against the extra viscosity. Adding throttle doesn't help as the carb just don't work well at that temp. With the lighter oil it starts and always stays running.

Too talk about longevity, and that's fine but mine is on its second engine with only. 104k on the clock. Was that due to running too heavy of oils? Who knows...

Got some 0w30 afe yesterday. Going to try that. Maybe there will be a difference, maybe not.