Oil recommendation for cbr900rr track bike

[DrDave]

Greetings:

In my Sportster I changed from 15-40 to 10-30 oil. I have UOA data for each oil. The 10-30 showed significantly lower wear metals. I don't see how that comports with your theory. I would be interested in Larry's comments as well.

Dave

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
Greetings:

In my Sportster I changed from 15-40 to 10-30 oil. I have UOA data for each oil. The 10-30 showed significantly lower wear metals. I don't see how that comports with your theory. I would be interested in Larry's comments as well.

Dave


Perhaps it's an example of a well orchestrated conspiracy theory.
It can only be designed to make one buy more bikes.

I think the manufacturers are trying to make us use the wrong grade of oil(too thick) in order to accelerate wear of the assembly.

HD says to use 20w-50 grade, and your detailed analysis through UOA's indicates that the thinnest oil imaginable reduces wear rates. But HD will allow a diesel oil in a pinch.

Ducati used to recommend a 10w-40 grade for their bikes, and from about the time they went to longer service intervals(+50%) Ducati changed their recommendation to a 15w-50 grade. The same recommended grade is still in place now they have increased their service intervals even further again.

 

[KernelK]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
Greetings:

In my Sportster I changed from 15-40 to 10-30 oil. I have UOA data for each oil. The 10-30 showed significantly lower wear metals. I don't see how that comports with your theory. I would be interested in Larry's comments as well.

Dave


Don't just brag about it, post it.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: KernelK
Originally Posted By: DrDave
Greetings:

In my Sportster I changed from 15-40 to 10-30 oil. I have UOA data for each oil. The 10-30 showed significantly lower wear metals. I don't see how that comports with your theory. I would be interested in Larry's comments as well.

Dave


Don't just brag about it, post it.


It's also irrelevant data. The numbers you see in a UOA only tell part of the story. It's possible that higher numbers in a UOA equate to less wear and one showing low numbers may have high wear. This is due to the limitations on the upper limit on the particle size that can be seen in UOA. Abnormal wear usually creates larger particles that are not seen by a standard UOA. Without ferrography and particle counts, to back it up, UOA is of little value for determining wear.

Ed

 

[DrDave]

Ed:

I had a particle count done with the UOA reports. I would be glad to post them if I knew how.

Dave

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
Greetings:

In my Sportster I changed from 15-40 to 10-30 oil. I have UOA data for each oil. The 10-30 showed significantly lower wear metals. I don't see how that comports with your theory. I would be interested in Larry's comments as well.

Dave



You are aware that a used oil analysis really doesn't mean much in regards to wear and if you're trying to imply a few ppm difference actually matters you don't know how to interpret a used oil analysis.

As has been said on this site time and time and time again a used oil analysis is done to monitor oil condition. Not wear. There are actual experts here who time and time again try to explain that comparing wear metals in used oil is a fools errand and wear cannot be measured in that way.
10ppm is meaningless and in no way means one oil wears more than another. Just because that data is listed on a used oil analysis doesn't mean anything without establishing trends.
You could use a lesson in how to interpret a used oil analysis from our esteemed member Doug Hillary. He is an actual expert and it's from his posts I've learned that wear metals in a used oil analysis don't mean much. Unless we are talking 50 or more ppm in a single interval. That could indicate an issue.
So if you are trying to glean wear via a used oil analysis and trying to imply less wear because of less wear metals you are mistaken.
I know it doesn't make sense. I scoffed at the idea as well however the actual experts here whom have a half century in the business tell me wear cannot be judged that way.

If you are actually here to learn something I suggest you pm Doug Hillary or Shannow,though Shannow has already replied in this thread and I'm sure either one would be happy to explain in a way I'm unable to.

When an engines bearings or mating surfaces require viscosity to keep the, apart of the viscosity isn't there it then depends on the additive package to reduce the damage.
Hydrodynamic lubrication is 0 wear. If that fails the additives take over to reduce the wear by sacrificing the tribo-chemical layer applied to engine surfaces.
So it's inevitable that thinner oil will run into the boundary area more often than a thicker one would. It's simple physics.
We also know that as revs increase so does the oil film thickness. So on a race bike that runs at high rpm that thinner oil may just build enough of a film to prevent failure.
Start running that bike at lower rpm with that same thinner oil and because the rpm are low it's much more important that there be viscosity there to prevent bearing damage.
Low revs like a v-twin tend to be ridden in a high load,low rev. Which hammers on the bearings. A 30 grade just isn't adequate during this kind of operation which is why most big twins call for a 20w-50. Because of how most of the people who ride them operate them.
I've got a modified Harley. Everything is modified. 107hp/115tq. And 100tq at 2200rpm. I use an hdeo in mine. Usually rotella at 3000 mile intervals. But I ride my bike higher in the rev range and I've got aftermarket oil cooling as well as fan cooled heads. So my oil doesn't get too thin because it doesn't get to hot.

In a race bike sure you could get away with a 30 grade since longs I isn't the goal. And 3hp matters.
On a road bike we are after different things and depending on how it's ridden some things work and others are asking for trouble.

I suggest learning how to read a used oil analysis though. If you are actually serious,or just want to keep believing incorrect "truths"

 

[HerrStig]

I like the part about "thin oil flowing to the bearings when cold"- while ignoring the fact that it's the "W" number which is the measure for that. If it's SO important he should be shilling 0w - 30. There's an extensive factory chart in my BMW manual, and close inspection shows that 20-50 is their oil of choice for the airhead motor. But, what does the bike maker know, eh?

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
I am disappointed that there are so many people that are disparaging Larry for his post. His information is objective and reproducible. He has years of knowledge on the subject at hand. Even if you don't agree with his information I would expect he be shown respect for his effort to share information. I thought that was the intention of this forum.

Dave
You're easily led.

 

[CBR.worm]

Originally Posted By: Diffinking
As above what oil would you guys recommend I run in my 1996 cbr900rr. The bike is solely track use only. Oil changed every. 3rd day

Currently using motul 5100 10w40. But I have noticed that on hard runs its using a little

Looking for good protection and value as I'm changing quite frequently





I would stick with what you are doing. Those bikes always burned a little on the track. If you are changing it every weekend you should be good. Stock, those motors are not too bad on oil. The transmission will shear it pretty quickly but that won't be an issue in a weekend.

I wouldn't base your decision solely on people's street experience, particularly in air cooled bikes. I raced that generation Honda competitively for 6 years doing teardowns every few months. Oil was not an issue. I saw shifting differences between different oils, but I never measured significant wear differences.

 

[rraiderr]

We ran Amsoil and Maxima extra in our track/street bikes with great success.

We used a 2 days at track change schedule.

We did do a test to see how the oil looked after 4 days of track use. The UOA's came back with plenty of oil life left.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

OP...
Shannow knows everything about a track bike except what its really
like to own and ride one... his track record is disparaging remarks
aimed at one rider in here... you see my objective and reproducible
information is not a problem... I'm the problem... I'm just a dumb guy
with a Lathe and Mill... he's the smart one with a PhD... what is
funny is the fact that we both agree you'd be better off the Mobil 1
5W30...

Quote Shannow
"Like I've said previously, I think you'd be better with Mobil 1 5W30, as
it's viscosity is identical freezing to 100C, and it's way less VII in
the mix."

 

[Atesz792]

Of course one should not forget that he said this while comparing Mobil 1 0w-30 to 5w-30, IIRC.
Out of context, much?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: bonjo
great info busy.
there are a couple of ???'s in the back of my mind which stop me from using 10-40. I have been using FS 10-50 all the time instead of 10-30 recommended by honda

what happens to oil degradation and loss of VI over time. say for a FS oil (like motule or mobil) after 6000 miles, starting with 10-40 or 10-50?

what is 10-60 recommended for off road bikes?

how does thinner oil affect gear change and oil consumption?


You're welcome bonjo...

My experience is that Honda can be trusted... if they recommend in
writing a 6K oil interval then it will meet and exceed your mileage
expectations because I believe after talking with the engineers at
Honda that they do thoroughly test the oil... in fact it doesn't
matter to your engines longevity if you run Dino or Synthetic... or
even 50 40 or 30 weight.... no one is wearing out their engine... but
it does matter in the amount of rear wheel HP is wasted in unnecessary
oil drag... between a 30wt and 40wt is 2 to 3 HP in unnecessary oil
drag... between a 30 and 50 is 4 to 6 HP in unnecessary oil drag...
choosing the freest flowing viscosity of 30 as prescribed by the
official Honda manual over a 40 50 is smarter because it will:


1)increase HP at the rear wheel
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

My customers report no negative difference in gear change or oil consumption running the recommended 30 weight...

After 25 years dealing with customers on this subject I found its not
a question of oil so much as a question of foot technique and clutch
drag... its a fact if your clutch is part way engaged your gears will
not shift smoothly as designed... here's how to check your clutch for
drag...

1 Place your bike on the center stand...

2 Start engine and establish a steady idle...

3 Squeeze in the clutch and hold... shift into first gear...

4 Now look at the rear wheel... if it's spinning step on the rear brake...
does this action drag down the engine rpms???

If you bike is equipped with an cable then adjust the clutch lever
knob clock wise (out) 1/4 turn and check again check for clutch
drag... if you bike is equipped with hydraulics bleed system and check
for bubbles...

Ultimately you want the rear wheel to stop when the engine is idling
and first gear selected with the clutch lever is squeezed in...

Makoto San my retired HRC engineer friend...

Makota San down on cannery row...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop

Quote Shannow
"Like I've said previously, I think you'd be better with Mobil 1 5W30, as
it's viscosity is identical freezing to 100C, and it's way less VII in
the mix."


Was trying to work out what you are on...and on about.

My statement "IN Context" as opposed to yours was that instead of the 0W30, YOU'd be better with the 5W30, as it's identical in "gravity flow" down to freezing, and has higher grade basestocks and lower VI.

That was NOT a recommendation for PCMO, or 5W30 for anybody...just the better option for YOU and your choices...the OP, I would never suggest M1 5W30...it was you, and you're harping on about M1 0W30 and "FLOW".

If you are going to quote me, then do it reasonably, and in context. Otherwise, you are just being a smart jerk.

Your stuff is not objective ... you can't even return comment on the piston squirter flow/oil pressure issue without resorting to "cager" and my lack of motorcycling.

I have rebutted many "facts" on your standard copy oil item, and you've not seen fit to defend a single item, just spew it out verbatum next time.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Of course one should not forget that he said this while comparing Mobil 1 0w-30 to 5w-30, IIRC.
Out of context, much?


True... he also said that before he witnessed how well the M1 0w30 did compared to a
motorcycle specific 10w30 Amsoil too... but hey that was a test to provided first hand
knowledge for me and my customers... I recommend Mobil 1 5W30...

Amsoil 10w30 versus Mobil 1 0w30

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Your stuff is not objective ... you can't even return comment on the piston squirter flow/oil pressure issue without resorting to "cager" and my lack of motorcycling.


Someone wants a comment??? here is a Cager who wouldn't know a motorcycle piston squirter if it was up his kazoo...

 

[02SE]

Larry,

Instead of dropping names (really, it's just embarrassing) and calling others names, I'd suggest that you might listen to the "PhD Cager" when it comes to oil and lubrication.

He may not have a Motorcycle. But he does have a good grasp on hydrodynamic lubrication.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


Your stuff is not objective ... you can't even return comment on the piston squirter flow/oil pressure issue without resorting to "cager" and my lack of motorcycling.


Someone wants a comment??? here is a Cager who wouldn't know a motorcycle piston squirter if it was up his kazoo...


OK LArry, post a thread, entitles, Larry's Oil 101, where you explain everything that you know about lubrication and oils.

Then I'll respond line by line (like I have in the past), and you can comment.

That way you can never accuse me of taking my responses to your off topic posts as off topic.

It will ALL be on topic.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Was trying to work out what you are on...and on about.

My statement "IN Context" as opposed to yours was that instead of the 0W30, YOU'd be better with the 5W30, as it's identical in "gravity flow" down to freezing, and has higher grade basestocks and lower VI.




I want to work with you too but the IN content was a direct question to you... I asked if
you owned a motorcycle what oil would YOU use and your response was Mobil 1 5W30...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


Was trying to work out what you are on...and on about.

My statement "IN Context" as opposed to yours was that instead of the 0W30, YOU'd be better with the 5W30, as it's identical in "gravity flow" down to freezing, and has higher grade basestocks and lower VI.


I want to work with you too but the IN content was a direct question to you... I asked if
you owned a motorcycle what oil would YOU use and your response was Mobil 1 5W30...


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3815215/Re:_M1_20W-50_&_15W-50#Post3815215

re YOUR use of 0W30 in your bike.