Changing filter every other OCI
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I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
What I do worry about is the probability that the media, leaf spring, coil spring, relief valve, or drain back will fail the longer the filter is in service. This is the main reason why I choose to change my filter at each and every oil change. If it gets more efficient during it's service time, then that's just gravy as far as I am concerned.
What I do worry about is the probability that the media, leaf spring, coil spring, relief valve, or drain back will fail the longer the filter is in service. This is the main reason why I choose to change my filter at each and every oil change. If it gets more efficient during it's service time, then that's just gravy as far as I am concerned.
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Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Filters are just too cheap to run for multiple OCI's.
Just my take on it.
Running 20,000 miles on an oil filter takes a Herculean leap of faith in filter manufacturers.
QC is for oil filters is pretty high but not perfect.
I used various low end and mid price filters in my 1994 LS400 for 1 full year up to 18-20k miles. What were those low end filters ? They were: Fram Extra Guard, STP, Pep Boys house brand(I got 2 free filters)... Mid price filters: Bosch Premium, Purolator P1 ... It never had high end filters such as Mobil 1, Bosch Distance Plus ...
The OCI's were 6 months with dino and FCI is 1 year, with syn the OCI is 12 months.
The car has more than 370k miles on odometer after 21 years, average about 18k miles a year.
How is the engine is running ? As good as it was 200-300k miles ago. No sign of any problem, no engine work was done.
Of the two filters, air filter is much more importance to prevent dust getting into the engine. I only use the best air filters for my cars and OEM is best in filtering efficient and flow.
Filters are just too cheap to run for multiple OCI's.
Just my take on it.
Running 20,000 miles on an oil filter takes a Herculean leap of faith in filter manufacturers.
QC is for oil filters is pretty high but not perfect.
I used various low end and mid price filters in my 1994 LS400 for 1 full year up to 18-20k miles. What were those low end filters ? They were: Fram Extra Guard, STP, Pep Boys house brand(I got 2 free filters)... Mid price filters: Bosch Premium, Purolator P1 ... It never had high end filters such as Mobil 1, Bosch Distance Plus ...
The OCI's were 6 months with dino and FCI is 1 year, with syn the OCI is 12 months.
The car has more than 370k miles on odometer after 21 years, average about 18k miles a year.
How is the engine is running ? As good as it was 200-300k miles ago. No sign of any problem, no engine work was done.
Of the two filters, air filter is much more importance to prevent dust getting into the engine. I only use the best air filters for my cars and OEM is best in filtering efficient and flow.
Oil filters are pretty cheap, I change them every oil change.
Originally Posted By: BigD1
I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
That may be true, just as there are no studies to show that efficiency makes a bit of difference at all. People keep saying it does (and they are reasonable arguments) but I've nearly always used the "rock catcher" OEM Toyota and Honda filters on my car and have yet to see any excessive consumption.
I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
That may be true, just as there are no studies to show that efficiency makes a bit of difference at all. People keep saying it does (and they are reasonable arguments) but I've nearly always used the "rock catcher" OEM Toyota and Honda filters on my car and have yet to see any excessive consumption.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: BigD1
I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
That may be true, just as there are no studies to show that efficiency makes a bit of difference at all. People keep saying it does (and they are reasonable arguments) but I've nearly always used the "rock catcher" OEM Toyota and Honda filters on my car and have yet to see any excessive consumption.
I was going to point out that OEM Toyota and Honda filters are not that efficient to begin with, but I am glad you did, and could have not said it any better myself.
Originally Posted By: BigD1
I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
That may be true, just as there are no studies to show that efficiency makes a bit of difference at all. People keep saying it does (and they are reasonable arguments) but I've nearly always used the "rock catcher" OEM Toyota and Honda filters on my car and have yet to see any excessive consumption.
I was going to point out that OEM Toyota and Honda filters are not that efficient to begin with, but I am glad you did, and could have not said it any better myself.
Originally Posted By: mongo161
IMO...2 or 3 OCI's with M1 extended performance, Fram Ultra, Bosch Distance+. K&N racing, Royal Purple, NAPA/WIX Synthetic, Purolator Synthetic.....etc. Heavy Duty build and excellent filtration allow these filters to go the distance.
IMO....That's 2 or 3 dry starts missed which is saving engine wear on the start up. The longer the filter is run, in a clean engine, the better the filtration.
Not all filters are created equal....
I've always filled the oil filter before installation. It probably takes 6-10 oz of oil depending on the size of the filter. Engine oil pressure comes up instantly, even in winter (30 deg F). I've never considered an oil change a "dry" start. Not filling the oil filter gets you closer to a dry start as you pump that air into the engine. And when I've changed the filter I never get more than a couple of ounces of fluid from the filter discharge/oil supply line. After turning off the engine the oil lines and galleries all empty. So by that reasoning every time you start the car it's some form of a dry start. I would guess the oil pump has to prime up a bit on every oil change start (or every startup) also contributing to a slight dry start.
The best way in my mind would be to do an oil change shortly after turning the engine off...then getting it run again within 15-30 minutes so that more warm oil is still clinging to engine internals. I really don't consider an oil change start up any more severe than when you start the car in the morning to go to work. It might actually be less severe since the engine will still be warm...though the oil you just added is only at ambient air temp. In the scheme of things over the life of the vehicle, a couple of dozen less oil change/filter starts is not going to matter much vs. 3,000-6,000 regular cold starts.
I always change the oil filter every oil change. But I might consider skipping an interval since I only put 1500 miles/year on one of my cars. No doubt that the M1 filter after 2 years/3,000 miles would be a lot cleaner than many other doing 5K-15K intervals. $9 for a quality filter seems cheap once per year.
Dry starts?
IMO...2 or 3 OCI's with M1 extended performance, Fram Ultra, Bosch Distance+. K&N racing, Royal Purple, NAPA/WIX Synthetic, Purolator Synthetic.....etc. Heavy Duty build and excellent filtration allow these filters to go the distance.
IMO....That's 2 or 3 dry starts missed which is saving engine wear on the start up. The longer the filter is run, in a clean engine, the better the filtration.
Not all filters are created equal....
I've always filled the oil filter before installation. It probably takes 6-10 oz of oil depending on the size of the filter. Engine oil pressure comes up instantly, even in winter (30 deg F). I've never considered an oil change a "dry" start. Not filling the oil filter gets you closer to a dry start as you pump that air into the engine. And when I've changed the filter I never get more than a couple of ounces of fluid from the filter discharge/oil supply line. After turning off the engine the oil lines and galleries all empty. So by that reasoning every time you start the car it's some form of a dry start. I would guess the oil pump has to prime up a bit on every oil change start (or every startup) also contributing to a slight dry start.
The best way in my mind would be to do an oil change shortly after turning the engine off...then getting it run again within 15-30 minutes so that more warm oil is still clinging to engine internals. I really don't consider an oil change start up any more severe than when you start the car in the morning to go to work. It might actually be less severe since the engine will still be warm...though the oil you just added is only at ambient air temp. In the scheme of things over the life of the vehicle, a couple of dozen less oil change/filter starts is not going to matter much vs. 3,000-6,000 regular cold starts.
I always change the oil filter every oil change. But I might consider skipping an interval since I only put 1500 miles/year on one of my cars. No doubt that the M1 filter after 2 years/3,000 miles would be a lot cleaner than many other doing 5K-15K intervals. $9 for a quality filter seems cheap once per year.
Dry starts?
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: tig1
Why add clean oil to the old oil that is left in the filter? Now if your engine is of no real value to you, then save the few bucks a filter cost.
In all honesty, the amount of dirty oil remaining in the oil pan, various oil galleries, etc.. is probably equal to, or greater than, the amount of dirty oil that would be left in your average oil filter.
You're never going to get 100% clean, fresh oil in your engine at any oil change, even with a new filter. Provided your filter is of sound construction (read "not a [censored] sub-par filter"), odds are good it can handle running multiple OCIs. I have no doubt that a Fram Ultra filter could run 2 or 3 OCIs in my car, without reaching its limits.
... A $2 pronto filter, not so much. If I ran these, they'd get changed at every OCI.
OK, using your logic, why increase the amount of old oil left in an engine?
Originally Posted By: tig1
Why add clean oil to the old oil that is left in the filter? Now if your engine is of no real value to you, then save the few bucks a filter cost.
In all honesty, the amount of dirty oil remaining in the oil pan, various oil galleries, etc.. is probably equal to, or greater than, the amount of dirty oil that would be left in your average oil filter.
You're never going to get 100% clean, fresh oil in your engine at any oil change, even with a new filter. Provided your filter is of sound construction (read "not a [censored] sub-par filter"), odds are good it can handle running multiple OCIs. I have no doubt that a Fram Ultra filter could run 2 or 3 OCIs in my car, without reaching its limits.
... A $2 pronto filter, not so much. If I ran these, they'd get changed at every OCI.
OK, using your logic, why increase the amount of old oil left in an engine?
Oil filters are cheap. Just replace it.
Originally Posted By: FastLane
Oil filters are cheap. Just replace it.
IMO...if that is how you feel then just buy the cheapest filter and change it with your dino oil every 5K miles. If you're running a quality synthetic, have a clean engine with no issues, buy a high quality extended mileage oil filter just do an easy drain and fill and leave the filter in place. Less mess, less fuss and your set to go another 10K with no worry.
If your engine is dirty, slugged or has an unknown history just run dino or syn blend for your oci of 5K and change the cheaper filter with each change
Oil filters are cheap. Just replace it.
IMO...if that is how you feel then just buy the cheapest filter and change it with your dino oil every 5K miles. If you're running a quality synthetic, have a clean engine with no issues, buy a high quality extended mileage oil filter just do an easy drain and fill and leave the filter in place. Less mess, less fuss and your set to go another 10K with no worry.
If your engine is dirty, slugged or has an unknown history just run dino or syn blend for your oci of 5K and change the cheaper filter with each change
Filters are cheap. Yep
However the more miles they rack up the better they filter. So in reality you get better filtration which means it traps the smaller particulate that does the damage to an engine.
So by running a filter for 2 or more intervals you are doing your engine a favour because it keeps trapping smaller and smaller particulate.
There is a caviat. You've gotta have a clean engine. If there are any deposits at all they e gotta be cleaned up before running this kind of routine.
But if an engine has used syn at decent intervals or conventional for appropriate intervals the engine should be clean.
I run tough guards for 20000 miles on known clean engines. At the time of dissection there is always agglomerated particulate in the folds of the media but the flats are clear and every time I kick myself because I know it could have run longer.
So these 3000-5000 mile intervals are pointless. I know it's only a few bucks but why spend them if you don't have to. Especially if you are getting better filtration vs a new filter.
However the more miles they rack up the better they filter. So in reality you get better filtration which means it traps the smaller particulate that does the damage to an engine.
So by running a filter for 2 or more intervals you are doing your engine a favour because it keeps trapping smaller and smaller particulate.
There is a caviat. You've gotta have a clean engine. If there are any deposits at all they e gotta be cleaned up before running this kind of routine.
But if an engine has used syn at decent intervals or conventional for appropriate intervals the engine should be clean.
I run tough guards for 20000 miles on known clean engines. At the time of dissection there is always agglomerated particulate in the folds of the media but the flats are clear and every time I kick myself because I know it could have run longer.
So these 3000-5000 mile intervals are pointless. I know it's only a few bucks but why spend them if you don't have to. Especially if you are getting better filtration vs a new filter.
If you are buying a premium oil filter like a Fram Ultra, Purolator Synthetic, Mobil 1, etc. and changing it every oil change, the bottom line is you are throwing away money. You do not need to be buying extended drain filters if you are not using them for their intended purposes.
I buy synthetic oil and Fram Ultras. I change the oil every 7,500 miles, and the filter every 15,000 miles. If there is residual oil left in the oil filter every other oil change then so what? The oil can go 15,000 miles anyway, and my oil filter will now be more efficient for the last 7,500 miles.
With a fumoto valve, I only have to get my hands dirty EVERY OTHER oil change. It's amazing, you should try it!
I buy synthetic oil and Fram Ultras. I change the oil every 7,500 miles, and the filter every 15,000 miles. If there is residual oil left in the oil filter every other oil change then so what? The oil can go 15,000 miles anyway, and my oil filter will now be more efficient for the last 7,500 miles.
With a fumoto valve, I only have to get my hands dirty EVERY OTHER oil change. It's amazing, you should try it!
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
I have owned, 76 Ford Econoline Van, 79 Malibu, 83 GM Van, 85 GM Van,94 GM Van,92 Dodge Shadow, 92 Plymouth Acclaim, 96-98-99 Dodge minivans and all of them called for oil filter change every second oil change. This is old school, nothing new.
I think that was the basic recommendation in my '75 Ford Maverick with the 250 six. I was just learning about cars then. The perceived wisdom among the people I consulted was, "One dirty quart of old oil equals five dirty quarts of oil in your engine." Filters + oil were all very cheap then, too, so I swapped out the filter at each change -- and have ever since.
Not sure what the owner's manual of the '11 Regal says, I'll need to check.
I have owned, 76 Ford Econoline Van, 79 Malibu, 83 GM Van, 85 GM Van,94 GM Van,92 Dodge Shadow, 92 Plymouth Acclaim, 96-98-99 Dodge minivans and all of them called for oil filter change every second oil change. This is old school, nothing new.
I think that was the basic recommendation in my '75 Ford Maverick with the 250 six. I was just learning about cars then. The perceived wisdom among the people I consulted was, "One dirty quart of old oil equals five dirty quarts of oil in your engine." Filters + oil were all very cheap then, too, so I swapped out the filter at each change -- and have ever since.
Not sure what the owner's manual of the '11 Regal says, I'll need to check.
I used to change filters in my Volvo 745T every 2nd oil change, but that was with the bullet proof German-made Mann W917 filters. I do the same on my lousy 1993 Accord, not because it's recommended, but because I think it's probably fine and won't matter a hoot to the engine (at 420K KM's).
Originally Posted By: BigD1
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: BigD1
I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
That may be true, just as there are no studies to show that efficiency makes a bit of difference at all. People keep saying it does (and they are reasonable arguments) but I've nearly always used the "rock catcher" OEM Toyota and Honda filters on my car and have yet to see any excessive consumption.
I was going to point out that OEM Toyota and Honda filters are not that efficient to begin with, but I am glad you did, and could have not said it any better myself.
OEM Toyota filters are very efficient.
Some commercial filter manufacturers do purport higher efficiency in their marketing materials but the factory filters do just fine.
You have to wade through the marketing stuff.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: BigD1
I keep reading about the efficiency of oil filters go up when they load up with dirt etc. But I have yet to see any studies that prove this. If I have a filter that is 99 to 99.99 percent efficient at 20 microns, I don't think it matters one bit that it gets more efficient because it is already more efficient to begin with than the average filter.
That may be true, just as there are no studies to show that efficiency makes a bit of difference at all. People keep saying it does (and they are reasonable arguments) but I've nearly always used the "rock catcher" OEM Toyota and Honda filters on my car and have yet to see any excessive consumption.
I was going to point out that OEM Toyota and Honda filters are not that efficient to begin with, but I am glad you did, and could have not said it any better myself.
OEM Toyota filters are very efficient.
Some commercial filter manufacturers do purport higher efficiency in their marketing materials but the factory filters do just fine.
You have to wade through the marketing stuff.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
OEM Toyota filters are very efficient.
I wouldn't call 51% @ 20 microns "very efficient". Maybe compared to no filter or a fine door screen, but certainly not when compared to others on the market.
http://www.amsoil.com/graphs/eao/EAO_efficiency_900.jpg
OEM Toyota filters are very efficient.
I wouldn't call 51% @ 20 microns "very efficient". Maybe compared to no filter or a fine door screen, but certainly not when compared to others on the market.
http://www.amsoil.com/graphs/eao/EAO_efficiency_900.jpg
Originally Posted By: jmsjags
If you are buying a premium oil filter like a Fram Ultra, Purolator Synthetic, Mobil 1, etc. and changing it every oil change, the bottom line is you are throwing away money. You do not need to be buying extended drain filters if you are not using them for their intended purposes.
I buy synthetic oil and Fram Ultras. I change the oil every 7,500 miles, and the filter every 15,000 miles. If there is residual oil left in the oil filter every other oil change then so what? The oil can go 15,000 miles anyway, and my oil filter will now be more efficient for the last 7,500 miles.
With a fumoto valve, I only have to get my hands dirty EVERY OTHER oil change. It's amazing, you should try it!
If you know your oil can go 15,000 miles and you change it every 7,500 miles, aren't you throwing away money too?
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
OEM Toyota filters are very efficient.
I wouldn't call 51% @ 20 microns "very efficient". Maybe compared to no filter or a fine door screen, but certainly not when compared to others on the market.
http://www.amsoil.com/graphs/eao/EAO_efficiency_900.jpg
There is no documented evidence that a more "efficient" oil filter will make the engine last any longer.
Old VW Beetles from the 60s are still running around and all they had was a cheap screen, no oil filter.
If you are buying a premium oil filter like a Fram Ultra, Purolator Synthetic, Mobil 1, etc. and changing it every oil change, the bottom line is you are throwing away money. You do not need to be buying extended drain filters if you are not using them for their intended purposes.
I buy synthetic oil and Fram Ultras. I change the oil every 7,500 miles, and the filter every 15,000 miles. If there is residual oil left in the oil filter every other oil change then so what? The oil can go 15,000 miles anyway, and my oil filter will now be more efficient for the last 7,500 miles.
With a fumoto valve, I only have to get my hands dirty EVERY OTHER oil change. It's amazing, you should try it!
If you know your oil can go 15,000 miles and you change it every 7,500 miles, aren't you throwing away money too?
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
OEM Toyota filters are very efficient.
I wouldn't call 51% @ 20 microns "very efficient". Maybe compared to no filter or a fine door screen, but certainly not when compared to others on the market.
http://www.amsoil.com/graphs/eao/EAO_efficiency_900.jpg
There is no documented evidence that a more "efficient" oil filter will make the engine last any longer.
Old VW Beetles from the 60s are still running around and all they had was a cheap screen, no oil filter.
Originally Posted By: stchman
There is no documented evidence that a more "efficient" oil filter will make the engine last any longer.
Old VW Beetles from the 60s are still running around and all they had was a cheap screen, no oil filter.
And there's no documented evidence that proves using less efficient oil filters doesn't cause any added wear. If there is added wear, it's probably not going to be realized by someone just driving the vehicle. Most vehicles will still run pretty good until they actually 'blow up'. You'd have to tear down the motor and do accurate measurements on wear items to see any wear differences due to the level of oil filtration.
More efficient filtration can't hurt. Based on all the "wear vs particle size" papers out there, they all say that better filtration equals less wear.
And ask anyone who had one of those VWs back in the 60s. Luck to make them go 80K before a rebuild.
There is no documented evidence that a more "efficient" oil filter will make the engine last any longer.
Old VW Beetles from the 60s are still running around and all they had was a cheap screen, no oil filter.
And there's no documented evidence that proves using less efficient oil filters doesn't cause any added wear. If there is added wear, it's probably not going to be realized by someone just driving the vehicle. Most vehicles will still run pretty good until they actually 'blow up'. You'd have to tear down the motor and do accurate measurements on wear items to see any wear differences due to the level of oil filtration.
More efficient filtration can't hurt. Based on all the "wear vs particle size" papers out there, they all say that better filtration equals less wear.
And ask anyone who had one of those VWs back in the 60s. Luck to make them go 80K before a rebuild.
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