Oil selection for Nissan MR20DE engine

[SR5]

OK, so I rang the Valvoline technical hotline (in Australia) and I asked them about this ACEA A3/B4/C3 rating for their SynPower MST 5W30 oil (product # 1186).

I politely asked how an oil could both be A3/B4 rated (sulphated ash >1.0 & 10) and C3 rated (sulphated ash 6) both at the same time.

The tech. had no idea what the ACEA ash or TBN levels were, but assured me that valvoline worked to the latest ACEA standard (2012) and that they did have those three ratings. There was no problem.

He couldn't believe that I knew what the ACEA sulphated ash levels were, he didn't know what they were, but I was probably wrong.

He said the MST product had a sulphated ash of < 1.0 and a TBN = 6.8 (the only on-line product info he had access to).

I politely said that to rate the oil for the latest A3/B4 standard, the oil needed a TBN of >=10, and to make the 2008 standard it still needed to be >=8.

He also basically said I was a trouble maker and I should go away.

 

[volodymyr]

SR5,

Originally Posted By: SR5
OK, so I rang the Valvoline technical hotline (in Australia) and I asked them about this ACEA A3/B4/C3 rating for their SynPower MST 5W30 oil (product # 1186).

I politely asked how an oil could both be A3/B4 rated (sulphated ash >1.0 & 10) and C3 rated (sulphated ash 6) both at the same time.

[...]

He also basically said I was a trouble maker and I should go away.



I think this topic has already been discussed in this forum: if oil meets ACEA A3/B4 and C3 at the same time it means the A3 specification is for 2004 year only.

Overall, I am surprised with the answer Valvoline gave to you. Several months ago I asked a question to Valvoline Ashland in Netherlands by e-mail and they replied basically with-in a day and they were very polite and informative.

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Originally Posted By: SR5
The tech. had no idea what the ACEA ash or TBN levels were, but assured me that valvoline worked to the latest ACEA standard (2012) and that they did have those three ratings. There was no problem.

He said the MST product had a sulphated ash of < 1.0 and a TBN = 6.8 (the only on-line product info he had access to).

He also basically said I was a trouble maker and I should go away.


I think this topic has already been discussed in this forum: if oil meets ACEA A3/B4 and C3 at the same time it means the A3 specification is for 2004 year only.

Overall, I am surprised with the answer Valvoline gave to you. Several months ago I asked a question to Valvoline Ashland in Netherlands by e-mail and they replied basically with-in a day and they were very polite and informative.


Ok, that figures. In ACEA A3/B4-04 there is no minumum TBN value defined and no minimum value for the sulphated ash either.

So, to conclude. An oil which is marketed as ACEA A3/B4/C3 is in fact an ACEA C3 oil only. And the A3/B4 is there just to calm down consumers who wouldn't dare to use mid SAPS C3 oil. So, it's basically a lie.

And for the customer service: It seems that an educated customer is a bad customer. "Yes, yes. It's an outstanding product (but please don't ask questions). Now, give me your money!"

 

[volodymyr]

finmile,

Originally Posted By: finmile


So, to conclude. An oil which is marketed as ACEA A3/B4/C3 is in fact an ACEA C3 oil only. And the A3/B4 is there just to calm down consumers who wouldn't dare to use mid SAPS C3 oil. So, it's basically a lie.



It is not a lie rather than a game of words. I took a look at specs for Valvoline SYNPOWER XTREME MST C3 5W-30 from http://www.valvolineeurope.com/uploadedFiles/5431.pdf and Valvoline does not say the oil is speced for A3/B4. It is only speced for ACEA C3.

Valvoline, however, also recomends this oil for ACEA A3/B4. Recommendation is not a specification. There are many other oil manufactures which recomend the oil for some specs which are actually not certified for this oil and the biggest name I can think of is Liqui Moly. There are many of them, but Liqui Moly seems to be "recomending" it's oil for a lot of specs. Take a look at this picture:

http://image.delti.com/oil-pictures/Liqui_Moly/16/TOP_TEC_4200_5W-30_1_l.jpg

Another example is Fuchs, if you are interested, I can find some evidence.

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Originally Posted By: finmile
So, to conclude. An oil which is marketed as ACEA A3/B4/C3 is in fact an ACEA C3 oil only. And the A3/B4 is there just to calm down consumers who wouldn't dare to use mid SAPS C3 oil. So, it's basically a lie.


It is not a lie rather than a game of words. I took a look at specs for Valvoline SYNPOWER XTREME MST C3 5W-30 from http://www.valvolineeurope.com/uploadedFiles/5431.pdf and Valvoline does not say the oil is speced for A3/B4. It is only speced for ACEA C3.

Valvoline, however, also recomends this oil for ACEA A3/B4. Recommendation is not a specification. There are many other oil manufactures which recomend the oil for some specs which are actually not certified for this oil and the biggest name I can think of is Liqui Moly. There are many of them, but Liqui Moly seems to be "recomending" it's oil for a lot of specs. Take a look at this picture:

http://image.delti.com/oil-pictures/Liqui_Moly/16/TOP_TEC_4200_5W-30_1_l.jpg

Another example is Fuchs, if you are interested, I can find some evidence.


Ok, that looks actually quite good and honest. The Valvoline spec sheet says it as it is.

Approvals/Performance levels:
- ACEA: C3-10
- Suitable for use in engines where ACEA: A3/B4 is recommended (except when using diesel fuels with more than 0.5% sulpher)

And also the Liqui Moly makes a clear difference between approvals and recommendations in the oil jug.

One must be careful with the wordings, it seems. I did learn some of the keywords just a couple a days ago in the thread below. Approved, certified, of quality level, suitable for, recommended...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3791408/1

 

[volodymyr]

finmile,

Originally Posted By: finmile

And also the Liqui Moly makes a clear difference between approvals and recommendations in the oil jug.


Yes, I promised to find something from Fuchs, here it is:

TITAN GT1 PRO FLEX SAE 5W-30 – XTL at http://www.fuchslubricants.com/titan-gt1-pro-flex-sae-5w-30--xtl says the following:

Specifications / Approvals: ACEA C3
Recommendations: ACEA A3/B4

There are more tragic examples, for example, I can see that German version of Amazon sells Aral Super Tronic Longlife III 5W-30 which is clearly a low SAPS oil as ACEA A3/B4:

http://www.amazon.de/Aral-Super-Tronic-Longlife-5W-30/dp/B001URA2M8

I wonder how many engines were ruined because of this error. I will probably write to their support to correct this problem.

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Yes, I promised to find something from Fuchs, here it is:

TITAN GT1 PRO FLEX SAE 5W-30 – XTL at http://www.fuchslubricants.com/titan-gt1-pro-flex-sae-5w-30--xtl says the following:

Specifications / Approvals: ACEA C3
Recommendations: ACEA A3/B4

Yes, very clear. I did like the fact that ACEA C3 and API SN/SM were with black colour and could be distinguished as Specifications, and car manufacturer Approvals were in red colour.


Originally Posted By: volodymyr

There are more tragic examples, for example, I can see that German version of Amazon sells Aral Super Tronic Longlife III 5W-30 which is clearly a low SAPS oil as ACEA A3/B4:

http://www.amazon.de/Aral-Super-Tronic-Longlife-5W-30/dp/B001URA2M8

I wonder how many engines were ruined because of this error. I will probably write to their support to correct this problem.

I doubt that using C3 instead of A3/B4 will ruin any engines in the EU area. The main difference is the lower TBN value in C3 oil, and it is ok as we have low sulphur diesel/gasoline.

And luckily it is written clearly on the oil jug label that it's an ACEA C3 oil. But yes, clearly an error. I bet there are a lot of these in the internet, whenever it's not the oil manufacturer's site.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
There are more tragic examples, for example, I can see that German version of Amazon sells Aral Super Tronic Longlife III 5W-30 which is clearly a low SAPS oil as ACEA A3/B4:

http://www.amazon.de/Aral-Super-Tronic-Longlife-5W-30/dp/B001URA2M8

I wonder how many engines were ruined because of this error. I will probably write to their support to correct this problem.


This appears to be an Amazon error - the label on the front of the pack clearly only shows ACEA C3. I have seen this before - online retailers using out-of-date or incorrect information in their descriptions.

 

[SR5]

Hi Guys,

The examples you gave are quite clear, e.g.
Specifications / Approvals: ACEA C3
Recommendations: ACEA A3/B4

And the LiquiMoly picture has two distinct lists.

The Valvoline SYNPOWER XTREME MST C3 5W-30 Product Information sheet linked above also makes it quite clear with it's "Suitable for" .

However on the Australian SynPower MST 5W-40 bottle it only has one list
"SPECIFICATIONS SAE 5W-40, API SM/CF, ACEA A3/B4/C3, BMW LL-04, MB 229.31, MB229.51, GM DEXOS 2, VW502.00, VW505.00, VW505.01"

That is exactly how it appears on the label.

For the same product (#1293) in their 2015/16 catalogue, lists "ACEA A3/B4 ACEA C3" in "Specification". There is no other list or category. Similarly in their Product Information sheet, they are both listed under "Specifications and Approvals" without any distinction between the two.

Have a look at
http://www.synpower.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/NEW_SYNPOWER_BROCHURE_LR.pdf

If you do a search for "1186" (MST 5W30) or "1293" (MST 5W40) here
http://www.valvoline.com.au/msds
You will find the Product Information sheet (they are the same). I can't link to it directly unfortunately.

Anyway, I think Valvoline Europe is giving clear approvals and distinct advice, yet I think Valvoline Australia is being a little deceptive. Maybe without even knowing. Their techs. I spoke to on the phone certainly had no idea.

I now better understand what these MST oils can and can't be used for, but I wonder if the average consumer does. I like a high TBN, so they are good oils, but not for me.

Thanks finmile, volodymyr, and all the rest for the interesting discussion.

Regards,
SR5

 

[volodymyr]

SR5,

Originally Posted By: SR5

However on the Australian SynPower MST 5W-40 bottle it only has one list
"SPECIFICATIONS SAE 5W-40, API SM/CF, ACEA A3/B4/C3, BMW LL-04, MB 229.31, MB229.51, GM DEXOS 2, VW502.00, VW505.00, VW505.01"

That is exactly how it appears on the label.


Yes, this is misleading. I took a look at the Australian web-site and I noticed that the bottles have different designs than those sold in Europe. I wonder if these are the old stocks of Valvoline oils and slightly rebadged and thus mentioning the A3/B4-04 spec?

I've seen some of the Castrol oils dated in 2012 with the same list of specs, it took me a while to find it and here it is:

Quote:
Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 C3
29 Feb 2012

ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4, C3
API SN/CF
dexos2*
MB-Approval 229.31
VW 502 00/ 505 00
BMW Longlife 04

Taken from UK shop Opie Oils

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pv-98860-castr...p;FitmentNotes=

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/castrol/castrol-magnatec-5w-30-c3.pdf



at the same time the latest revision of this oil does not contain the A3/B4:

Quote:
Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 C3
30 Jan 2014

ACEA C3
API CF/SN
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.31
VW 502 00/ 505 00
dexos2® *

Taken from http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/5C3FD440F0844E5580257C70003D221B/$File/BPXE-9FWEZX.pdf

 

[SR5]

I'm not convinced it just old stock / bottles.
Their 2015 catalogue, lists "ACEA A3/B4 ACEA C3" for the oil specification

 

[volodymyr]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr


There are more tragic examples, for example, I can see that German version of Amazon sells Aral Super Tronic Longlife III 5W-30 which is clearly a low SAPS oil as ACEA A3/B4:

http://www.amazon.de/Aral-Super-Tronic-Longlife-5W-30/dp/B001URA2M8

I wonder how many engines were ruined because of this error. I will probably write to their support to correct this problem.


Amazon.de did confirm their mistake and promised to fix it soon.

 

[volodymyr]

Hello everyone,

Just to close the topic with my final choice of the oil:

Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 (EU version, made in Netherlands):

SAE 5W–30
API SL/CF
ACEA A3/B4
MB-229.5
GM LL-A-025, LL-B-025
VW 502.00 and 505.00
BMW LL-01

I decided to use the same oil I used last year. Reasons are the following:

- I got a sealed one liter bottle of old Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 from last year, and I felt pity to throw it away or mix with new oil

- I got phenomenally low oil consumption on SynPower: almost no oil burnt for 10'000 km

- very good reviews of SynPower in Eastern Europe under harsh driving conditions

- german web-site where I buy the oil marks it as Vollsynthetik

- I like packaging of Valvoline (1 liter + 4 liter bottles)

- Why changing something if it works well

 

[Popsy]

I thought you were heading to Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 with GTL?

Do you plan on doing uoa?

 

[volodymyr]

I will switch to Helix Ultra next year assuming there will be more reports from people using the GTL base which is quite new thingy.

As for the UOA, yes, I plan to do it eventually, but I am constantly busy with something else which is not car.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Hello everyone,

Just to close the topic with my final choice of the oil:

Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 (EU version, made in Netherlands):

SAE 5W–30
API SL/CF
ACEA A3/B4
MB-229.5
GM LL-A-025, LL-B-025
VW 502.00 and 505.00
BMW LL-01

I decided to use the same oil I used last year. Reasons are the following:

- I got a sealed one liter bottle of old Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 from last year, and I felt pity to throw it away or mix with new oil

- I got phenomenally low oil consumption on SynPower: almost no oil burnt for 10'000 km

- very good reviews of SynPower in Eastern Europe under harsh driving conditions

- german web-site where I buy the oil marks it as Vollsynthetik

- I like packaging of Valvoline (1 liter + 4 liter bottles)

- Why changing something if it works well


Good work mate.

Solid choice.

 

[volodymyr]

So, it's been one year and so far everything is great with the Dutch-made SynPower 5W-30. I've done ~10k km (~6213 miles) over the year and no oil consumption at all during this time.

As I am approaching to my next oil change I have a choice to make. Since the car had not consumed any oil I have one liter of sealed SynPower 5W-30 left that I bought in case I need to add some oil. I would like to try some new oils this time, but it will be inefficient to throw away a perfectly sealed liter of a new oil and I am hesitating between the following choices:

1. Buy 3 more liters of SynPower 5W-30 and use the resulting 4 liters for the next oil change in October (good use of the remaining oil)

2. Pump out 1 liter of used oil from the engine and pour in 1 liter of the new SynPower 5W-30 and run it until October (limited use of the remaining oil, but better than throwing it away)

3. Throw away 1 liter of SynPower 5W-30 or sell it (I am trying to sell it for a cheap price but noone wants it because it not so well-known brand as Castrol for instance)

4. Use a new oil (I am thinking of full SAPS Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30 or mid SAPS Castrol Edge 5W-30 LL and mix it with 1 liter of SynPower (perhaps environmentally good use of the oil, but I am not a fan of mixing)

What would you choose? Do you have any better suggestions regarding my choices above?

 

[Popsy]

Since it is a perfectly sealed bottle, I'd keep it in the trunk or garage or somewhere (actually one of my car has a special compartment in the trunk for a 2L oil bottle, maybe your car has something practical like that?) in case you need to top off someday, and try some new oil, since you are thinking of trying something else.
I always like trying new stuff, so I'd do that, but the reasonable way since you seem to be perfectly satisfied with this Valvoline oil is to buy 3 other litres for another year OCI with Valvoline

I don't consider mixing, unless it is some leftover from 4/5L jugs that are already opened.
I never needed to top off my current cars, but in the past I was sometimes happy to have some spare oil at hand...once I forgot to close the fill cap and made a mess (I know, silly me), or I gave a few to a friend, etc.

 

[volodymyr]

I've decided to go with the option #1.

 

[dexos]

I recommend to you the Valvoline SynPower Xtreme ENV C2 5W30 (ACEA A5/C2)