Break-in additives and new engines?
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Originally Posted By: TheRuss
Hi folks,
I recently bought a brand new car (N55 equipped BMW), and wishing to keep it in the best shape possible I dumped the factory fill of oil after around 30 miles, in an effort to get rid of any debris in there from the initial bedding-in of the piston rings.
Only now, after having done that am I wondering whether I've inadvertently dumped some break-in additives with the factory fill, or whether these generally aren't used any more, due to BMW's 20,000 mile/2 year OCIs and smaller tolerances in modern engines? And therefore whether it's worth getting a break-in additive to put in myself, or whether that will do more harm than good.
I also plan to change the oil again at 1200miles, at the end of the period that BMW say to keep RPMS below around 4000-4500, which presumably is the full break in period for everything to bed in.
After that, from what I've read here and on other forums I was thinking of going to a 7500mile OCI, as seemingly BMW's own 20,000 mile/2 year OCI is too much even for the best current oils, due to high fuel dilution and high oil temps in this engine.
Any help/advice anyone could give would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
Russ
Follow your owner's manual on motor oil type (dino or synthetic), weight, quantity and oil change interval. Nothing else is required. Congrats on your new ride.
Hi folks,
I recently bought a brand new car (N55 equipped BMW), and wishing to keep it in the best shape possible I dumped the factory fill of oil after around 30 miles, in an effort to get rid of any debris in there from the initial bedding-in of the piston rings.
Only now, after having done that am I wondering whether I've inadvertently dumped some break-in additives with the factory fill, or whether these generally aren't used any more, due to BMW's 20,000 mile/2 year OCIs and smaller tolerances in modern engines? And therefore whether it's worth getting a break-in additive to put in myself, or whether that will do more harm than good.
I also plan to change the oil again at 1200miles, at the end of the period that BMW say to keep RPMS below around 4000-4500, which presumably is the full break in period for everything to bed in.
After that, from what I've read here and on other forums I was thinking of going to a 7500mile OCI, as seemingly BMW's own 20,000 mile/2 year OCI is too much even for the best current oils, due to high fuel dilution and high oil temps in this engine.
Any help/advice anyone could give would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
Russ
Follow your owner's manual on motor oil type (dino or synthetic), weight, quantity and oil change interval. Nothing else is required. Congrats on your new ride.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
Originally Posted By: Trav
You didn't dump break in additives. I know the mixture of what BMW uses on their bearings and bores during assy and it has nothing to do with the oil, its washed away in just a few minutes.
I like the plan and would stick to it.
Those of the opinion that you are dumping the factory fill too early are not paying for the car or the oil.
Great stuff - thanks Trav, you've really put my mind to rest. The goal should then be the lowest cost over your ownership of the vehicle.
In all likelihood I'll change the car within 10 years and under 100,000 miles, likely around the 6 year mark perhaps, and probably not even hitting 60,000 miles, so for me I just want to ensure the car has best performance and runs as well as possible whilst I have it.
There is then really no need for pampering. You goal then should be making the cost of the vehicle as low as possible.
Originally Posted By: Trav
You didn't dump break in additives. I know the mixture of what BMW uses on their bearings and bores during assy and it has nothing to do with the oil, its washed away in just a few minutes.
I like the plan and would stick to it.
Those of the opinion that you are dumping the factory fill too early are not paying for the car or the oil.
Great stuff - thanks Trav, you've really put my mind to rest. The goal should then be the lowest cost over your ownership of the vehicle.
In all likelihood I'll change the car within 10 years and under 100,000 miles, likely around the 6 year mark perhaps, and probably not even hitting 60,000 miles, so for me I just want to ensure the car has best performance and runs as well as possible whilst I have it.
There is then really no need for pampering. You goal then should be making the cost of the vehicle as low as possible.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
BMW have apparently now changed oil supplier to Shell, but from what I gather on these forums (and others) the Shell oils aren't generally regarded as highly as the Castrol ones.
Again you could argue "so you know better than the engineers then", but the decision to change all oils to Shell was almost certainly made due to Shell offering BMW a better deal than Castrol did on this occasion, not because all BMWs past and present will suddenly be better off on Shell oils.
I really wouldn't worry about that. The oil is still made to meet the same specs.
Shell is pretty highly regarded here as well.
BMW have apparently now changed oil supplier to Shell, but from what I gather on these forums (and others) the Shell oils aren't generally regarded as highly as the Castrol ones.
Again you could argue "so you know better than the engineers then", but the decision to change all oils to Shell was almost certainly made due to Shell offering BMW a better deal than Castrol did on this occasion, not because all BMWs past and present will suddenly be better off on Shell oils.
I really wouldn't worry about that. The oil is still made to meet the same specs.
Shell is pretty highly regarded here as well.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
BMW have apparently now changed oil supplier to Shell,
I know that's the case in North America, but is it also the case in Europe?
Quote:
but from what I gather on these forums (and others) the Shell oils aren't generally regarded as highly as the Castrol ones.
The 'regard' you mention has absolutely no legs to stand on in reality, IMO. Shell/Pennzoil products are just as high quality and have the necessary mfg approvals to back it up. People on various forums may have personal opinions and brand loyalties, but they are all very subjective, so you should take them for what they're worth (nothing).
BMW have apparently now changed oil supplier to Shell,
I know that's the case in North America, but is it also the case in Europe?
Quote:
but from what I gather on these forums (and others) the Shell oils aren't generally regarded as highly as the Castrol ones.
The 'regard' you mention has absolutely no legs to stand on in reality, IMO. Shell/Pennzoil products are just as high quality and have the necessary mfg approvals to back it up. People on various forums may have personal opinions and brand loyalties, but they are all very subjective, so you should take them for what they're worth (nothing).
The factory fill is a secret and the manufacturers are not talking.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
BMW have apparently now changed oil supplier to Shell,
I know that's the case in North America, but is it also the case in Europe?
Quote:
but from what I gather on these forums (and others) the Shell oils aren't generally regarded as highly as the Castrol ones.
The 'regard' you mention has absolutely no legs to stand on in reality, IMO. Shell/Pennzoil products are just as high quality and have the necessary mfg approvals to back it up. People on various forums may have personal opinions and brand loyalties, but they are all very subjective, so you should take them for what they're worth (nothing).
Exactly, and therein lies the problem with getting information online. Too much of it is opinion and too little is facts.
As you say, in all likelihood both oils will perform the same or close enough that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference driving the car.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
BMW have apparently now changed oil supplier to Shell,
I know that's the case in North America, but is it also the case in Europe?
Quote:
but from what I gather on these forums (and others) the Shell oils aren't generally regarded as highly as the Castrol ones.
The 'regard' you mention has absolutely no legs to stand on in reality, IMO. Shell/Pennzoil products are just as high quality and have the necessary mfg approvals to back it up. People on various forums may have personal opinions and brand loyalties, but they are all very subjective, so you should take them for what they're worth (nothing).
Exactly, and therein lies the problem with getting information online. Too much of it is opinion and too little is facts.
As you say, in all likelihood both oils will perform the same or close enough that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference driving the car.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
Exactly, and therein lies the problem with getting information online. Too much of it is opinion and too little is facts.
As you say, in all likelihood both oils will perform the same or close enough that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference driving the car.
Well that's not true, there are all sorts of facts online. What does your car require? LL-01? If so, does the oil meet that spec or not? If it does, then the fact is that it is entirely sufficient for the application. If it does not, then it isn't.
And I'd be hard pressed to detect any difference in driving no matter what the oil.
Exactly, and therein lies the problem with getting information online. Too much of it is opinion and too little is facts.
As you say, in all likelihood both oils will perform the same or close enough that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference driving the car.
Well that's not true, there are all sorts of facts online. What does your car require? LL-01? If so, does the oil meet that spec or not? If it does, then the fact is that it is entirely sufficient for the application. If it does not, then it isn't.
And I'd be hard pressed to detect any difference in driving no matter what the oil.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
Exactly, and therein lies the problem with getting information online. Too much of it is opinion and too little is facts.
As you say, in all likelihood both oils will perform the same or close enough that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference driving the car.
That is my view on it as well. I try to discount opinions and rely more on actual mfg approvals which require extensive testing to obtain. If an oil officially meets very stringent mfg specs such as MB 229.5/229.51 or Porsche A40, then to me that speaks more for this oil's performance than any internet opinion. Granted, I am hereby expressing just another internet opinion, so...
Spend more time enjoying the car, and less time worrying about which particular oil to put in it, as long as it meets the required BMW spec.
Exactly, and therein lies the problem with getting information online. Too much of it is opinion and too little is facts.
As you say, in all likelihood both oils will perform the same or close enough that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference driving the car.
That is my view on it as well. I try to discount opinions and rely more on actual mfg approvals which require extensive testing to obtain. If an oil officially meets very stringent mfg specs such as MB 229.5/229.51 or Porsche A40, then to me that speaks more for this oil's performance than any internet opinion. Granted, I am hereby expressing just another internet opinion, so...
Spend more time enjoying the car, and less time worrying about which particular oil to put in it, as long as it meets the required BMW spec.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
They couldn't care less how well my engine runs and how long it lasts, as long as it doesn't completely break down and makes it out of the warranty period.
A popular sentiment on the interwebs but completely unsupported by any facts or proof.
They couldn't care less how well my engine runs and how long it lasts, as long as it doesn't completely break down and makes it out of the warranty period.
A popular sentiment on the interwebs but completely unsupported by any facts or proof.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
They couldn't care less how well my engine runs and how long it lasts, as long as it doesn't completely break down and makes it out of the warranty period.
A popular sentiment on the interwebs but completely unsupported by any facts or proof.
I've always thought it's not in the manufacturer's best interest for the car to break down. If you have a lot of break downs would you come back to that brand and buy a 2nd car?
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
They couldn't care less how well my engine runs and how long it lasts, as long as it doesn't completely break down and makes it out of the warranty period.
A popular sentiment on the interwebs but completely unsupported by any facts or proof.
I've always thought it's not in the manufacturer's best interest for the car to break down. If you have a lot of break downs would you come back to that brand and buy a 2nd car?
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
I've always thought it's not in the manufacturer's best interest for the car to break down. If you have a lot of break downs would you come back to that brand and buy a 2nd car?
People who lease their cars or buy a new car every 3 years don't really care if they break down past the warranty period. However, if the car is generally thought to be unreliable or expensive to upkeep past the warranty period, it will affect its resale/trade-in value. That is partly why BMW/Mercedes/Audi cost a lot less once they're off warranty.
I've always thought it's not in the manufacturer's best interest for the car to break down. If you have a lot of break downs would you come back to that brand and buy a 2nd car?
People who lease their cars or buy a new car every 3 years don't really care if they break down past the warranty period. However, if the car is generally thought to be unreliable or expensive to upkeep past the warranty period, it will affect its resale/trade-in value. That is partly why BMW/Mercedes/Audi cost a lot less once they're off warranty.
Nervous ninnies waste resources.
The oil filter is for ... what?
I was an early dumper. NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.
If anything, change the filter instead!
The oil filter is for ... what?
I was an early dumper. NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.
If anything, change the filter instead!
I'm not saying I think the car will break down if I follow BMW's guidelines, but BMW don't care how healthy your engine is, providing it doesn't completely fail.
Most on here would say to shy away from BMW's recommended 20,000 mile OCIs on this engine, but in reality it's unlikely that adhering to a 20,000 mile OCI will kill the engine, it just might not be as healthy in a few years as an engine that has had more frequent OCIs.
Who knows how long you'd have to go without changing the oil for the engine to actually fully break down and malfunction.
As for the oil filter, yes, I changed that too, and installed a magnetic drain plug whilst I was in there.
Most on here would say to shy away from BMW's recommended 20,000 mile OCIs on this engine, but in reality it's unlikely that adhering to a 20,000 mile OCI will kill the engine, it just might not be as healthy in a few years as an engine that has had more frequent OCIs.
Who knows how long you'd have to go without changing the oil for the engine to actually fully break down and malfunction.
As for the oil filter, yes, I changed that too, and installed a magnetic drain plug whilst I was in there.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Nervous ninnies waste resources.
The oil filter is for ... what?
I was an early dumper. NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.
What part is before the oil filter and one of the most important parts of the lubrication system? Don't you think keeping hard metal particles out of is could be of benefit?
How about other countries that where the 1K first OCI is still applicable for the same make and model, are those owners still early dumpsters?
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER is your opinion and no more valid than those who chose to dump FF early.
Nervous ninnies waste resources.
The oil filter is for ... what?
I was an early dumper. NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.
What part is before the oil filter and one of the most important parts of the lubrication system? Don't you think keeping hard metal particles out of is could be of benefit?
How about other countries that where the 1K first OCI is still applicable for the same make and model, are those owners still early dumpsters?
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER is your opinion and no more valid than those who chose to dump FF early.
Originally Posted By: Trav
What part is before the oil filter and one of the most important parts of the lubrication system? Don't you think keeping hard metal particles out of is could be of benefit?
How about other countries that where the 1K first OCI is still applicable for the same make and model, are those owners still early dumpsters?
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER is your opinion and no more valid than those who chose to dump FF early.
What are you saying, that some owner's manuals outside the US tell you to dump the FF early?
What part is before the oil filter and one of the most important parts of the lubrication system? Don't you think keeping hard metal particles out of is could be of benefit?
How about other countries that where the 1K first OCI is still applicable for the same make and model, are those owners still early dumpsters?
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER is your opinion and no more valid than those who chose to dump FF early.
What are you saying, that some owner's manuals outside the US tell you to dump the FF early?
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
I'm not saying I think the car will break down if I follow BMW's guidelines, but BMW don't care how healthy your engine is, providing it doesn't completely fail.
Most on here would say to shy away from BMW's recommended 20,000 mile OCIs on this engine, but in reality it's unlikely that adhering to a 20,000 mile OCI will kill the engine, it just might not be as healthy in a few years as an engine that has had more frequent OCIs.
I haven't seen anyone provide proof of that other than paranoia.
I have seen people who have 300k miles or even 500k miles following BMW's extended OCIs.
A lot of BMW drivers are needlessly changing their oil IMO.
I can see why someone would want to change the FF early. Don't really see the point of changing the filter though. It's not going to get clogged or tear in a brand new car.
I'm not saying I think the car will break down if I follow BMW's guidelines, but BMW don't care how healthy your engine is, providing it doesn't completely fail.
Most on here would say to shy away from BMW's recommended 20,000 mile OCIs on this engine, but in reality it's unlikely that adhering to a 20,000 mile OCI will kill the engine, it just might not be as healthy in a few years as an engine that has had more frequent OCIs.
I haven't seen anyone provide proof of that other than paranoia.
I have seen people who have 300k miles or even 500k miles following BMW's extended OCIs.
A lot of BMW drivers are needlessly changing their oil IMO.
I can see why someone would want to change the FF early. Don't really see the point of changing the filter though. It's not going to get clogged or tear in a brand new car.
Originally Posted By: TheRuss
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Too late; You did it now!
What oil went in? This is a largish sump is it not?
And expensive proposition with no perceived benefit?
Indeed, too late! I'm not worried about it being wasted cash - in my head I'm getting rid of any initial rubbish from the first running of the engine and bedding in of the rings, so I'm fine with that. I just don't want to be doing anything detrimental to the engine if it did happen to need break-in additives, and then I'd be asking what I can use/add to help that.
It is indeed a large sump - usually quoted at 7 quarts. There is also an oil cooler, which I doubt would have drained during the change. I added approx 6 litres and the oil computer shows the max mark (no dipstick on these motors either).
Edit: Castrol FST 0W30 Fully Synth (also known as GC on here I believe) went in, which is BMW's recommended fill, and I think what they use themselves.
What rubbish.
Oh the rubbish that sits in the oil pan that even if it did get suck up by the oil pump it gets filtered before it goes thru the oiling circuit.
That rubbish.
Anyway what does the manual say. Is there any reason to believe that an automaker like bmw has made a mistake in handbook and it shouldn't be trusted.
Honda is adamant about leaving the factory fill in for the entire interval. Does bmw say the same thing?
Last engine I helped with the builder used an assembly lube that was high in zddp and moly. So those extra anti-wear agents and friction modifiers end up becoming mixed in with the first oil fill.
In the grand scheme of things does it matter. I doubt it. The big deal is break in and the ring seal. I suggest motoman'so break in procedure. Easily found on the web.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Too late; You did it now!
What oil went in? This is a largish sump is it not?
And expensive proposition with no perceived benefit?
Indeed, too late! I'm not worried about it being wasted cash - in my head I'm getting rid of any initial rubbish from the first running of the engine and bedding in of the rings, so I'm fine with that. I just don't want to be doing anything detrimental to the engine if it did happen to need break-in additives, and then I'd be asking what I can use/add to help that.
It is indeed a large sump - usually quoted at 7 quarts. There is also an oil cooler, which I doubt would have drained during the change. I added approx 6 litres and the oil computer shows the max mark (no dipstick on these motors either).
Edit: Castrol FST 0W30 Fully Synth (also known as GC on here I believe) went in, which is BMW's recommended fill, and I think what they use themselves.
What rubbish.
Oh the rubbish that sits in the oil pan that even if it did get suck up by the oil pump it gets filtered before it goes thru the oiling circuit.
That rubbish.
Anyway what does the manual say. Is there any reason to believe that an automaker like bmw has made a mistake in handbook and it shouldn't be trusted.
Honda is adamant about leaving the factory fill in for the entire interval. Does bmw say the same thing?
Last engine I helped with the builder used an assembly lube that was high in zddp and moly. So those extra anti-wear agents and friction modifiers end up becoming mixed in with the first oil fill.
In the grand scheme of things does it matter. I doubt it. The big deal is break in and the ring seal. I suggest motoman'so break in procedure. Easily found on the web.
Some machining metal and debris could have been in the engine... If you changed oil and filter (hot), then if there was a colloidal metal in the oil, it's gone. Good on you. I usually go 100 miles on engine break-in oil, but whatever.
Mostly, I'd install a magnetic drain plug if possible and use a premium filter.
To the statement that all the oil goes through the filter - that highly speculative ... Cold oil (thick) and high RPMs can by-pass the filter putting unfiltered oil into places where you don't want it. We prolly don't know what pressure BMW's by-pass springs are set (?), but some may very well have bypassed...
Your early dump may have gotten rid of a lot of fine metal that will help the engine live. Assuming no wrecks or salt attacks, this car and motor could live a long healthy life. Better safe that sorry ...
But, modern oils can last a long time. So after say 10K, I'd start stretching back out toward the OEM OCI ...
And to the poster who says our job is to make the car as cheap as possible - he does not drive a Beemer, or a BBC
Mostly, I'd install a magnetic drain plug if possible and use a premium filter.
To the statement that all the oil goes through the filter - that highly speculative ... Cold oil (thick) and high RPMs can by-pass the filter putting unfiltered oil into places where you don't want it. We prolly don't know what pressure BMW's by-pass springs are set (?), but some may very well have bypassed...
Your early dump may have gotten rid of a lot of fine metal that will help the engine live. Assuming no wrecks or salt attacks, this car and motor could live a long healthy life. Better safe that sorry ...
But, modern oils can last a long time. So after say 10K, I'd start stretching back out toward the OEM OCI ...
And to the poster who says our job is to make the car as cheap as possible - he does not drive a Beemer, or a BBC
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Trav
What part is before the oil filter and one of the most important parts of the lubrication system? Don't you think keeping hard metal particles out of is could be of benefit?
How about other countries that where the 1K first OCI is still applicable for the same make and model, are those owners still early dumpsters?
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER is your opinion and no more valid than those who chose to dump FF early.
What are you saying, that some owner's manuals outside the US tell you to dump the FF early?
Some at 1K Km (600 miles) and the same engine sold in the US has no such recommendation, whats up with that? Fair question wouldn't you say.
No matter, the engineers that were responsible for the sludge monsters, bad cams and cylinders, rod bearing failures, cam chain problems, ect in many makes and models cant be the same ones recommendation the OCI today, can they? LOL
Originally Posted By: Trav
What part is before the oil filter and one of the most important parts of the lubrication system? Don't you think keeping hard metal particles out of is could be of benefit?
How about other countries that where the 1K first OCI is still applicable for the same make and model, are those owners still early dumpsters?
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER is your opinion and no more valid than those who chose to dump FF early.
What are you saying, that some owner's manuals outside the US tell you to dump the FF early?
Some at 1K Km (600 miles) and the same engine sold in the US has no such recommendation, whats up with that? Fair question wouldn't you say.
No matter, the engineers that were responsible for the sludge monsters, bad cams and cylinders, rod bearing failures, cam chain problems, ect in many makes and models cant be the same ones recommendation the OCI today, can they? LOL
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