Gear lube, Marine verses Auto versions

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Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Again, Amsoil's marine lube is cheaper than their Severe Gear. Amsoil would profit more from just allowing customers to buy Severe Gear, and be done.


Your're kidding me?
 
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/gear-lube/ $15.85 qt

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/gear-lube/universal-synthetic-marine-gear-lube/ $12.20 qt

Don't forget that regardless of manufacturer, most outdrives need a hypoid/EP gear lube.

People forget that when they decide to evade manufacturer lube.

I'm not a proponent of using OEM lubes, unless warranty is involved. It's just a very good idea to make sure you're using the right lube for the right application.

You don't need to use a marine lube, but using one will give you extra protection if you have a leak.
 
Here's the thing, if the the OEMs are having oils blended with "special additives" that are ground breaking or absolutely necessary for their marine product, why would they not provide the proof. If the blend has an additive that somehow separates water from oil, stick the info in a data sheet - provide proof. OEM's and oil producers use other words to describe oil and water mixing. The bottom line is water and oil do not mix, but synthetic oil seems to maintain it's lube capability with small amounts of water intrusion.

In todays world as others rightly point out, words are pretty much meaningless - proof eliminates doubt. If the OEM is silent the clear and obvious reason is they have no proof that would stand appraisal.

Could some marine GL5 lubes be lower in cost due to LS friction modifiers being removed. They are unwanted in drives. Amsoil Severe gear lube for example seems to have LS modifiers added, so it is not ideal for some drives.
 
I think the proof has already been posted several times already. Emulsifiers are not some mysterious gypsy magic or "special additive" any more than moly, zinc, boron, and calcium are. And Amsoil also includes the data from the Falex test, showing it performs as well with 10% water contamination as it does when uncontaminated.

I mean, if you just want to believe it's all a big scam, go right ahead. But don't tell me they're claiming they use unicorn blood and don't back up that their oil works for its intended purpose.

Severe Gear must not be made with LS additive, because they call for factory LS additive to be used with every single one of my LS applications I looked up.

SG will also work very well in outdrives. It's done all of the time.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I think the proof has already been posted several times already. Emulsifiers are not some mysterious gypsy magic or "special additive" any more than moly, zinc, boron, and calcium are. And Amsoil also includes the data from the Falex test, showing it performs as well with 10% water contamination as it does when uncontaminated.

I mean, if you just want to believe it's all a big scam, go right ahead. But don't tell me they're claiming they use unicorn blood and don't back up that their oil works for its intended purpose.




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These people refuse to study and understand the data presented because they have an agenda and just want to complain.
 
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Originally Posted By: Marineblitz
Here's the thing, if the the OEMs are having oils blended with "special additives" that are ground breaking or absolutely necessary for their marine product, why would they not provide the proof. If the blend has an additive that somehow separates water from oil, stick the info in a data sheet - provide proof.


The exact additive mix is proprietary, but since you are an ace chemist, check this out:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...nal_#Post530321
 
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Originally Posted By: Marineblitz
OEM's and oil producers use other words to describe oil and water mixing.


And what might those be?
confused2.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Marineblitz
The bottom line is water and oil do not mix, but synthetic oil seems to maintain it's lube capability with small amounts of water intrusion.


Again, your ignorant remarks and refusal to study and understand the data never ceases to NOT amaze me.
 
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I read Molakule's list of additives. Thank you for posting the link it is informative and helpful. I have kept a copy for future reference.

I was seeking a Synthetic GL5 75/90 oil suitable for marine use in a drive unit with two sets of clutch packs. Water and clutch packs are not normally good together.

The various oil manufacturers reps I spoke with would not specifically state that emulsifiers for water intrusion were present in their oil of the type I was seeking. I assumed that meant none were present. I am likely wrong - but have no proof either way.

The closest answer I had was the synthetic oil performed fine with a small amount of water intrusion.

In answer to your question " and what might those be"

Amsoil simply say in their on line advert "the oil maintains EP protection with 10% water contamination"
Re LS Amsoil say "AMSOIL Severe Gear is compatible with most limited-slip differentials"

The point of my post was, oil direct producers and OEM oils could eliminate confusion and gain trust by stating what is in the particular product. For example, emulsifiers for water intrusion, or Friction modifiers for LS differentials etc etc

I joined this site to learn more about oil, it is a great site and full of great info and links.
 
Question - Is it not likely that most major lube providers know what is in their competitor's products? With access to all the analysis gear and money (and "friends in the biz") necessary to determine that they would be crazy not to know. If true, that would then mean that the only interested people who don't know what is in the product are the people who are buying it? That isn't necessarily bad it just isn't optimum from the buyers' standpoint.

This reminds me of one of the complaints regarding the over-classification of information by the government. Some/much (unknowable quantity) of what is classified is already known to the enemy but is unknown to the people who paid for its collection. This mainly serves to keep people in the dark and maintains control for those in power, i.e., we, the high priests, will protect you. But I digress.

Bottom line on the lube side is that each provider has a philosophy, if you will, about what additives go into their products. Keeping the contents of those formulas secret is purposely designed to keep from having to compete directly with other providers on those contents in the minds of the buyers. This could get expensive and, horrors, might in the end come up with a "nearly perfect" formula for each application. Then there would be less to differentiate the product and it would descend further into being a commodity with few ways to enhance profit. Think gasoline or corn. Furthermore, it would make it more difficult for the formulator to change his formula at will within certain limits in search of lower costs and higher profits without "confusing" the buyers.

Consider for a moment how much money is spent on advertising and promoting lubricant products. Lubricants are about 1% of petroleum products and, one assumes, massively lucrative. Don't think for one minute that there have not been mountains of calculations done that result in this answer - we will make more money by spending billions (as an industry) on advertising and promotion saying "ours is better" than if we allow these products to descend into a commodity "race to the bottom" on pricing.

From the buyers side then it comes down to a matter of trust. Would a major company with much competitive edge to lose and massive profits on the line out and out lie to us. Some mislead of course but competition, vehicle manufacturers, ethical researchers and users like BITOG help to maintain a certain bandwidth of reality.

If you can't find that trust level stop using lubricants because it ain't gonna change.
 
The thing I think a lot of people are forgetting here is that the average consumer simply wants to know which oil is right for their product, and why. Delving into formulas and ingredients are not only something they don't want to know, but couldn't understand even if they did. For some, this information will cause them to do more harm than good, because they don't understand the grand scheme of petroleum composition.

For example, Amsoil's statement regarding SG's compatibility with most LS's. This is because a great deal of LS's don't require a special additive. My axle does not require an LS additive, no matter what I throw in there.

But if you enter your year, make, and model, Amsoil will tell you if you still need to use an LS additive or not. This system is as fair as it gets for most of the people who are shopping for lube. They're going to get the right product for their application. Period.

Where the marine gear lube is concerned, they did the most fair thing they could do for the consumer: Provide proof through a standardized test that their marine lube will protect a drive with 10% water contamination.

Anyone who wants to know more can easily find out through their own research.

Dealing with both the average and even the advanced boat owner on a daily basis, I can tell you that almost nobody gives a rat's derrière what goes into their drive. If I attempt to explain it to them, I usually get rudely interrupted and instructed only to give my assurance that it's "the good stuff", "the right stuff" or "the best stuff" and how much it costs. They expert their oil company or the shop providing the lube to do the work. They don't want to take a short science class to decide themselves.

Factory warrantied drives get the spec lube, along with purchase and photo documentation of drive drain and fill (demonstrating lube condition before fill, and use of spec lube). Everything else gets synthetic marine lube, unless engine oil is called for, or aftermarket cannot match factory spec.
 
Well one perspective is its just easier to use Mercruiser High Performance in a Mercruiser and the cost is $2 or $3 extra per year. You use just over 1 QT for many Mercruiser outdrives and the gear oil is available at Walmart. Its 90W where others are 75W90 or similar. I think its about $2 or $3 dollars over other name brands. Not sure the other name brands are 90W.

So for an extra few dollars a year, I just do not need to worry about the gear oil. One less decision about my boat.

Now another poster had an IPS drive that took a lot of gear oil, in that case maybe I would do some reading to determine if other name brand gear oils could be used without an issue.
 
Originally Posted By: cat843
Well one perspective is its just easier to use Mercruiser High Performance in a Mercruiser and the cost is $2 or $3 extra per year. You use just over 1 QT for many Mercruiser outdrives and the gear oil is available at Walmart. Its 90W where others are 75W90 or similar. I think its about $2 or $3 dollars over other name brands. Not sure the other name brands are 90W.

So for an extra few dollars a year, I just do not need to worry about the gear oil. One less decision about my boat.

Now another poster had an IPS drive that took a lot of gear oil, in that case maybe I would do some reading to determine if other name brand gear oils could be used without an issue.


it seems funny that both gear lube AND engine oil for Mercruiser use some odd ball viscosity spec. Almost every other gear lube is 75w, Mercruisers is 90W. Mercruiser engine oil is even weirder, 25W-40?? Seems a pretty slick way to spec out the competition.
 
The 25-40 is made that way to use the least amount of VI's to reduce shearing as much as possible. A lot of people running commercial equipment use this oil for the same reason.

Their gear oil is that heavy because their drives see astronomical temps compared to a standard transmission. It's not unusual to see 280+ degrees in a Bravo drive especially.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The 25-40 is made that way to use the least amount of VI's to reduce shearing as much as possible. A lot of people running commercial equipment use this oil for the same reason.

Their gear oil is that heavy because their drives see astronomical temps compared to a standard transmission. It's not unusual to see 280+ degrees in a Bravo drive especially.


not to be a doubting Thomas but do you have links to these claims or is this just pulled out of thin air?
 
Google it. Mercruiser/Quicksilver 25/40 has no VI's.

Where the gear oil is concerned, just look at the average operating temp of a Bravo drive, compared to an axle or trans. They run around 300F.
 
But the 25w40 shears quite alot, search on this forum.
Temps in merc outdrive uppers are outrageous, wonder why there are "drive upper showers" for merc drives? Because the upper gears are chewing hard, harder than other brand for some reason.
 
Indeed it does, but so do a lot of lubes in marine engines. I don't use the stuff myself. Point is, it wasn't designed to force people to use a certain lube. It was designed to be more shear resistant than a VI loaded multigrade.

Some, like VP recommend a straight 30W in the same pursuit.
 
yep, that's true, totally ok. And over here, Quicksilver is not even the most expensive oil either, so fair value too. VP also says dino OEM 20w50, I don't know if that oil is prone to break but it is also ok value. I will go back to delvac mx 15w40 again, however.
 
Hi there, I thought to post a short note on my experience using a non OEM 75/90 Penrite (AU) Blue marine fully synthetic gear oil in a Volvo IPS drive.

The rig has done 60 odd hours since changing from the Volvo OEM oil over 6 months. I did 3 oil sample tests in the 60 hours. My plan was to change the oil at 50 hours as many do in stern drives. The oil samples showed no issues.

The non OE oil has performed very well. The oil came as clear as the day it went in and the cost of product was $100 versus $600 for the OEM.

One note of caution with these drives. Volvo upgraded gear box clutch pack design in the IPS drives due to failures. Regular Oil testing is critical, not only for water intrusion, but also for signs of clutch pack material in the oil.

This boat has a new owner now, my next launch will be shaft drive.

Many thanks to all those who took an interest.
 
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