Confused between PP & PUP

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Other than, both the Platinum and Ultra Platinum are ACEA A5/B5; so, they are both meant for extended drains. I still think that the main difference between them is a thinner GTL blend and more VIIs in the Ultra.

Except, they won't stand behind non-OEM intervals on any product, from PYB up to PU. So, given that PP and PU meet exactly the same specifications, up to and including A5/B5 and are guaranteed for identical OCIs, they are completely interchangeable, aside from price.

Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
The PUP obviously cleans better (as ASTM tests prove) than PP, so NOACK doesn't tell the whole story of the oil. Pennzoil must have some pretty stable VII's & additives that don't burn off leaving deposits or they would have shown up in ASTM deposit tests correct ?

None of which will amount to a hill of beans in the real world, particularly when used at OEM OCIs.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
I'm looking at using PP in my F150 Ecoboost, is there any reason I couldn't run the 10w30 vs the spec'd 5w30 ? Thickness wise there's not much difference between them, but with the 10w30 you get a low NOACK of 4.7 vs 10.1 for 5w30. Both have a pour point of -48. The 10w30 seems like it would be an overall more stable oil. Winters here rarely see temps below 20F, it may dip into the teens on occasion. I'm thinking the PP 10w30 would be an all around great oil.


I tend to agree with your thinking. I know PUP is their premium product, but the super low noack of the 10W30 PP makes it very appealing to me. It should be very shear stable too, as it would hardly use any VII. As long as you can use 10W in your winters, it should be good to 0F. That would do me by a country mile, except we don't get PP or PUP here, so I'm just dreaming.

 

[Fasttimez]

I haven't seen any numbers or found any numbers doing searches for the 10w30 PP or PUP for HTHS or VOA content & the like. I've found plenty of 5w30 PUP numbers, but no HTHS on that either. I always wonder why the major oil companies don't release these numbers, just generic info.

 

[Garak]

They did on a previous datasheet, just not this one. The same happened with QSUD. Given that it's an ILSAC rated 30, the range isn't going to be wide. I'd lay money on 3.1 plus or minus 0.1.

 

[Fasttimez]

The more I compare PP & PUP I can't help but notice how the PUP has a higher NOACK & VI than the PP of the same grades. There has got to be something in the additive pack that's causing the oil to be more volatile as reported in the NOACK numbers, the PUP must have more VII's also because of the higher VI numbers. Just doesn't make sense looking at the info Pennzoil provided on their website why PUP should be better than PP.

 

[Garak]

Obviously, there is some internal rationale for Shell having PU as the premium product, despite me giving them a very rough time about it. Obviously, it's not simply Noack or VI.

 

[Fasttimez]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Obviously, there is some internal rationale for Shell having PU as the premium product, despite me giving them a very rough time about it. Obviously, it's not simply Noack or VI.

I agree, no doubt PUP cleans better than PP. Obviously the numbers also reflect that perhaps the extra additive,VI or whatever is making PUP just a bit more volatile at the sake of engine cleanliness, but not enough to make a fuss over. I do wonder why Pennzoil doesn't designate PUP for longer OCI's if it has this tremendous cleaning ability, which makes me wonder if the oil starts to really fall off after 5K miles....makes you wonder.

 

[KCJeep]

Both P4 and PUP have plenty of good looking UOA's posted here at 10k or better. Not sure why SOPUS has avoided the extended OCI marketing bandwagon both Castrol and especially Mobil are doing it.

 

[Fasttimez]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Both P4 and PUP have plenty of good looking UOA's posted here at 10k or better. Not sure why SOPUS has avoided the extended OCI marketing bandwagon both Castrol and especially Mobil are doing it.

What's interesting is that Pennzoil doesn't make PUP for the European market, only North America & Asia. Clearly they're after fuel economy numbers with this oil. The PP does have a Euro counterpart blend, kinda strange you wouldn't market your "flagship" oil to the entire world.

 

[shiny]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Both P4 and PUP have plenty of good looking UOA's posted here at 10k or better. Not sure why SOPUS has avoided the extended OCI marketing bandwagon both Castrol and especially Mobil are doing it.


I wonder if it's a legal issue. Maybe shell's lawyers don't feel comfortable doing it for some reason?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Both P4 and PUP have plenty of good looking UOA's posted here at 10k or better. Not sure why SOPUS has avoided the extended OCI marketing bandwagon both Castrol and especially Mobil are doing it.



I found that interesting as well.
Considering that both Mobil and castrol are guaranteeing 15000 miles with their top tier oils it's a wonder why sopus isn't giving a comparable product if ultra isn't it.
I wonder if it's a liability issue?
We have all seen the used oil analysis with ultra being capable of extended drains however sopus is very consise in its wording that the manufacturers recommended interval supersedes any interval suggested by the oil companies.
We know with the EP lines castrol and Mobil are taking aim at amsoil and their extended extended drain intervals,and except amsoils hdeo lines I have not seen a single used oil analysis that confirmed amsoils ability to run 25000 miles.
Amsoils hdeo's however definitely showed they were capable of longer than 25000 miles however their sso line for gassers has yet to prove capable.
It's an interesting situation anyway.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: shiny
I wonder if it's a legal issue. Maybe shell's lawyers don't feel comfortable doing it for some reason?

If it were costing a bunch of warranty claims, then I'd wonder why Mobil, Castrol, Royal Purple, and Amsoil still offer their warranties. Castrol was in the same pickle up here at first with gold bottle Edge as Shell was with PU. There was nothing to show that gold bottle was worth the extra money over black bottle, except that it was in a gold bottle. Everyone stopped stocking it because it wouldn't move. No one is paying extra money for one brand of synthetic over another synthetic from the same brand unless you can explain to them why they should.

So, when the difference between the mileage warranties for Castrol was pushed up here, akin M1 versus M1 EP, the gold bottle started selling, and it's on shelves everywhere again. Note that M1 EP never had the problem up here, since it's differentiated clearly on the bottle as to why it's worth extra money. PPP and PUP seem too much the same upon casual examination and under careful examination. Relying on price differentiation alone means no one up here carries it.

Black bottles being worth more than silver bottles is as nonsensical as gold bottles being worth more than black bottles. Perhaps Mobil was onto something. Make them all the same colour, and when one costs more, someone will have to read the label to figure out why, and will see the mileage guarantee.

 

[Fasttimez]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: shiny
I wonder if it's a legal issue. Maybe shell's lawyers don't feel comfortable doing it for some reason?

If it were costing a bunch of warranty claims, then I'd wonder why Mobil, Castrol, Royal Purple, and Amsoil still offer their warranties. Castrol was in the same pickle up here at first with gold bottle Edge as Shell was with PU. There was nothing to show that gold bottle was worth the extra money over black bottle, except that it was in a gold bottle. Everyone stopped stocking it because it wouldn't move. No one is paying extra money for one brand of synthetic over another synthetic from the same brand unless you can explain to them why they should.

So, when the difference between the mileage warranties for Castrol was pushed up here, akin M1 versus M1 EP, the gold bottle started selling, and it's on shelves everywhere again. Note that M1 EP never had the problem up here, since it's differentiated clearly on the bottle as to why it's worth extra money. PPP and PUP seem too much the same upon casual examination and under careful examination. Relying on price differentiation alone means no one up here carries it.

Black bottles being worth more than silver bottles is as nonsensical as gold bottles being worth more than black bottles. Perhaps Mobil was onto something. Make them all the same colour, and when one costs more, someone will have to read the label to figure out why, and will see the mileage guarantee.

All the auto parts stores around me mostly carry the silver bottle PP, only the 5w20 PUP gets carried in one. Our local Walmart is AWESOME, they stock every grade from 0w20 to 20w50. They stock Eruo blends like Mobil 0w40 & Castrol & Pennzoil. Almost every diesel blend from Rotella to Delvac. I shop exclusively for oil there. I read a post from another guy saying he drives over 45mins to shop at the Walmart I'm talking about because of their great selection of oil.

 

[Garak]

You're quite lucky. Our Walmarts do carry GC 0w-30 and 0w-30, as far as oddball things go, but there aren't a lot of alternatives to them, and Wakefield markets aggressively. I have never seen PU old or new in person, ever.

 

[Fasttimez]

Originally Posted By: Garak
You're quite lucky. Our Walmarts do carry GC 0w-30 and 0w-30, as far as oddball things go, but there aren't a lot of alternatives to them, and Wakefield markets aggressively. I have never seen PU old or new in person, ever.

Yeah, that must suck wanting to try an oil but not being able to find it anywhere. Walmart is also considerably cheaper on their prices, costing an average of $2 less per quart of premium oils.....example PUP 5w20 at Advance Auto $10 vs $8 at Walmart. The 5 quart jugs have an even better discount.

 

[Garak]

Our Walmarts do not cooperate on price, except on occasional rollbacks. If it's not on sale, you're much better off going to the independent automotive shops, or, better yet, a distributor. Walmart Canada thinks everything should have a markup of at least 100%, including oil, when clearly that's not the industry norm.

 

[Fasttimez]

Everything's more expensive in Canada it seems. I hunt a lot & talking with guys from Canada the same supplies I get here in the states have like a 200% markup in Canada....it's crazy.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
Everything's more expensive in Canada it seems. I hunt a lot & talking with guys from Canada the same supplies I get here in the states have like a 200% markup in Canada....it's crazy.


We get shafted up here. When I lived in Detroit I was absolutely flabbergasted at the price differences on everything. From car parts to milk the difference was unreal.
Car parts were roughly half what we typically pay here. Milk iirc was 1.99 a gallon. The necessities of life were far less costly in America however I do remember that minimum wage was disgustingly low. Waitstaff made 2 bucks an hour or something ridiculous. They basically survived of their tips.
We started labourers at 12 an hour. 1099 them for taxes.
We had a lot of Mexicans working for us. When they found out we would pay them 12 an hour,and actually pay them they couldn't believe it. I remember one older fella welled up with tears.
Anyways back to the topic.
Canadians get the shaft

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
We get shafted up here. When I lived in Detroit I was absolutely flabbergasted at the price differences on everything. From car parts to milk the difference was unreal.
Car parts were roughly half what we typically pay here. Milk iirc was 1.99 a gallon. The necessities of life were far less costly in America however I do remember that minimum wage was disgustingly low. Waitstaff made 2 bucks an hour or something ridiculous. They basically survived of their tips.
We started labourers at 12 an hour. 1099 them for taxes.
We had a lot of Mexicans working for us. When they found out we would pay them 12 an hour,and actually pay them they couldn't believe it. I remember one older fella welled up with tears.
Anyways back to the topic.
Canadians get the shaft


And Mexican laborers in Detroit it seems.

 

[Gokhan]

For the 0W-40 grade, the Platinum version has a NOACK of less than or equal to 10% as it satisfies MB 229.5 while the Ultra Platinum (SRT) version has a NOACK of 13% according to the TDS (PDF link).

Therefore, their GTL base stock appears to be of low quality (relatively high NOACK) and ironically the Platinum version seems to contain PAO to lower the NOACK and it seems to be of higher quality than the Ultra Platinum. Go figure.

I also doubt that the SRT version meets the Chrysler MS-12633 as it claims. I think Chrysler may be cheated by Shell.

Shell simply plays too many games.

And the worst: Pennzoil Euro xW-40 is three to four times more expensive than Mobil 1 0W-40 SN, which is a proven premium synthetic.

I think Shell may be losing its GTL game.