'07 Civic Si Amsoil ss 0w30 8k miles+drag strip

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Well I doubled my OCI on Amsoil sig series 0w30. I guess it's not a great test to compare because the other oci's didn't include drag strip time. A friend of mine says to run the 5w30 because he believes it is slightly thicker at op temp. The Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C is 10.5 for the 0w30 and 10.4 for the 5w30. I don't think I should change what I am doing. Lead is up from 0 to 4 ppm, but that is probably from launching the car 20+ times (5 or 6 times on a really sticky lane at the track). Other metals are up as well, but I did double the mileage the oil is in the car for. Car has 95k miles and is driven hard daily in hot FL. Shifting around 8200rpm track and street. I've gone a step further this time around and am now running a bypass filtration kit on this car with the 0w30 from Amsoil. Probably overkill (i'm a car nerd), but long live the k20!
Thoughts?


v79uhxZ.png
 
Nice results. But definitely overkill for 8k miles. Which oil filter do you use?

If you live in FL and drive it really hard, I'd use Mobil 1 0w40, s2000 oil filter, overfill 0.5-0.7 qts and call it a day.

Yes, I know it's spec'd for xw30, bla bla bla. xw40 is recommended for K20a's and K20z's worldwide, especially in hot climates.
 
Nothing at all is wrong with that report. You could certainly go longer. I'd stick with what's working.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Nothing at all is wrong with that report. You could certainly go longer. I'd stick with what's working.


+1 and with a TBN of 6.0 you could easily have gone another 8k miles more than likely.
 
Looks pretty good! There are not many cars that you can drag and still have single digit wear numbers.
 
Nice report. I have used the 0W/30 SSO since the first OC in my 13SI with the exception of the 5/30 ASL in this last change. Great oil, no reason to change a thing. The difference in viscosity at operating temp is insignificant between the two. You could run either and I doubt the results would be any different. The only advantage to using the 5/30 ASL is it is a tad bit cheaper.
 
Dragstrip runs aren't much effort and the metals are higher because the oil was run longer and non of the Metals are high.
 
@dgunay I used to run the stock Honda S2000 filter (thats what was used on the previous two runs on the slip) but this run was with the Amsoil Ea S2000 filter (Ea15k20 I believe). I have more than one person telling me to use a 0w40 in this car, but I'm hesitant to change as I drive hard and still get good results with the 0w30. Maybe if I road race the car with friends in a few months, I'll consider the 40wt. Idk, I'm kinda curious how the 0w30 would do at a track for 10-20 minute sessions.
 
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Originally Posted By: CT8
Dragstrip runs aren't much effort and the metals are higher because the oil was run longer and non of the Metals are high.


Ditto!

Originally Posted By: Guitarman200806
@dgunay I used to run the stock Honda S2000 filter (thats what was used on the previous two runs on the slip) but this run was with the Amsoil Ea S2000 filter (Ea15k20 I believe). I have more than one person telling me to use a 0w40 in this car, but I'm hesitant to change as I drive hard and still get good results with the 0w30. Maybe if I road race the car with friends in a few months, I'll consider the 40wt. Idk, I'm kinda curious how the 0w30 would do at a track for 10-20 minute sessions.


As mentioned, xw30 is recommended for K series in North America due to emission purposes. It is totally fine for city driving, cruising or short term racing. But I wouldn't take risk using 0w30 at the track or long sessions.

I used caterham blend at the track (3+ hr in 2 sessions), still runs fine. I have put about 5k miles on the same oil and still using it. No oil consumption so far.

Oh btw, here is my video if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxe-ZTRjl-E

But the BIG difference is, I live in Toronto. We rarely see 90 f temps around here.
 
Honda engines (and Toyota) can generate very low iron numbers consistently. I asked why in another thread a while back and a few of the replies were something like "Honda/Toyota owners drive like grannies, making metal wear low". I think this proves that theory wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: dgunay
Originally Posted By: CT8
Dragstrip runs aren't much effort and the metals are higher because the oil was run longer and non of the Metals are high.


Ditto!

Originally Posted By: Guitarman200806
@dgunay I used to run the stock Honda S2000 filter (thats what was used on the previous two runs on the slip) but this run was with the Amsoil Ea S2000 filter (Ea15k20 I believe). I have more than one person telling me to use a 0w40 in this car, but I'm hesitant to change as I drive hard and still get good results with the 0w30. Maybe if I road race the car with friends in a few months, I'll consider the 40wt. Idk, I'm kinda curious how the 0w30 would do at a track for 10-20 minute sessions.


As mentioned, xw30 is recommended for K series in North America due to emission purposes. It is totally fine for city driving, cruising or short term racing. But I wouldn't take risk using 0w30 at the track or long sessions.

I used caterham blend at the track (3+ hr in 2 sessions), still runs fine. I have put about 5k miles on the same oil and still using it. No oil consumption so far.

Oh btw, here is my video if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxe-ZTRjl-E

But the BIG difference is, I live in Toronto. We rarely see 90 f temps around here.



In the US (and in Canada I believe), base model K series engines like the k20a3 and the k24s are actually rated for a xw20 oil for emissions purposes. It's just a trick for some extra mpg. Tolerances are said to be identical in the base and high-end, high-rev engines like our z3. So theoretically, you could use an xw20 in our motor for just light in town driving and would probably see an increase in fuel economy. I am under the impression that Honda has already accounted for the use these high-revving motors get by recommending an xw30 for the sporty models. I believe that the extra layer of protection provided by the xw30 is enough for 99% of these engines and their hard use. I beat the snot out of mine (after a gentle warmup) and have never had a bad UOA on any xw30. If you look at my Blackstone report, the very first results dated 7/10/2013 are from when the car was running honda genuine synthetic blend 5w20. Al is higher as is Iron, but it still wasn't a huge difference. No doubt, the xw30 is a better choice and has been used since in my k20.

I believe that if the xw30 is still giving me 90psi on my oil press. gauge at 8000 rpm, there is no problem using it. At the strip, I did 7 passes consecutively and still had good pressure after every run. Mobil 1 0w40 is a stout oil that I would use if I believed I needed a 0w40 for this car. But with oil pressure and temp gauges, I'm not too worried about running the xw30 at Sebring for the day.

By the way, glad to see you use your Si to greater potential. Nice video dgunay!
 
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Originally Posted By: gregk24
Looks pretty good! There are not many cars that you can drag and still have single digit wear numbers.




Without trended data it's meaningless. In fact without data who says these values aren't high.
And drag racing isn't that hard on a warm engine. It's harder on the suspension and drive line than it is the engine.
And why haven't you absorbed yet that wear cannot be determined from a used oil analysis. Are you intentionally ignoring that or is it more than you can understand.
 
Originally Posted By: Guitarman200806

In the US (and in Canada I believe), base model K series engines like the k20a3 and the k24s are actually rated for a xw20 oil for emissions purposes. It's just a trick for some extra mpg. Tolerances are said to be identical in the base and high-end, high-rev engines like our z3. So theoretically, you could use an xw20 in our motor for just light in town driving and would probably see an increase in fuel economy. I am under the impression that Honda has already accounted for the use these high-revving motors get by recommending an xw30 for the sporty models. I believe that the extra layer of protection provided by the xw30 is enough for 99% of these engines and their hard use. I beat the snot out of mine (after a gentle warmup) and have never had a bad UOA on any xw30. If you look at my Blackstone report, the very first results dated 7/10/2013 are from when the car was running honda genuine synthetic blend 5w20. Al is higher as is Iron, but it still wasn't a huge difference. No doubt, the xw30 is a better choice and has been used since in my k20.

I believe that if the xw30 is still giving me 90psi on my oil press. gauge at 8000 rpm, there is no problem using it. At the strip, I did 7 passes consecutively and still had good pressure after every run. Mobil 1 0w40 is a stout oil that I would use if I believed I needed a 0w40 for this car. But with oil pressure and temp gauges, I'm not too worried about running the xw30 at Sebring for the day.

By the way, glad to see you use your Si to greater potential. Nice video dgunay!


Thanks. It's been my daily driver so it's mostly stock with few mods. It needs better tires and suspension, of course!

I was going to say w30 for "rev happy" k series (k20a2, k20z3), I know it's 0w20 or 5w20 for regular hondas. LOL

It's more than likely that you would see lower oil pressure at track due to increasing oil temp, but anything more than 75 psi is good. Please share the results!
 
Worst thing to happen would be to do a cool off lap or quit for awhile if temps get too high. We're not talking racing, it's more like an open track for the day so you don't have to go flap out for an hour. Maybe 20 minutes tops. Do these K series really see super high temps in short track sessions? I didn't think thicker oil was necessary for light track use. There is that heat exchanger on the z3 and a2 motors that Honda calls an "oil cooler" lol.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Looks pretty good! There are not many cars that you can drag and still have single digit wear numbers.




Without trended data it's meaningless. In fact without data who says these values aren't high.
And drag racing isn't that hard on a warm engine. It's harder on the suspension and drive line than it is the engine.
And why haven't you absorbed yet that wear cannot be determined from a used oil analysis. Are you intentionally ignoring that or is it more than you can understand.



If we want to talk trending data, there exists a "universal averages" column which includes an average of wear metals seen on all k20 engines Blackstone has seen. There are people on the 8thcivic forum who post their reports up fairly often. These averages aren't directly comparable to individual engines due to many variables like usage habits, climate, track use or not, and the mileage on the oil and engine in each report. Blackstone says those averages are based on ~6000 miles on the oil. My run was another 2,100 miles, included track use and a hot FL climate, and was still spot on the average minus Pb ( which is strange to me). Again, not a direct comparison, but still not "high" levels of wear compared to other k20 engines. At this rate, the motor should last a long time.

The drag strip is not an abusive environment for a warmed up car, but it doesn't mean abuse isn't there. The launch is the most abusive part. Sure the drivetrain takes a beating when components are shock loaded, but isn't the crankshaft right behind that drivetrain? So I could see even minimal engine wear internally from shock loading when the clutch is used as a mere on/off switch.

I also want to hear why a UOA is not indicative of (some) engine wear. It may be a small sample, but what better way do you know of to check what's going on inside an engine? UOA can't tell the whole story, but it can give a pretty good idea of any problem internally. That metal isn't in virgin oil in numbers greater than 1-2 ppm, so where does the rest of it come from?
 
Originally Posted By: Guitarman200806
Worst thing to happen would be to do a cool off lap or quit for awhile if temps get too high. We're not talking racing, it's more like an open track for the day so you don't have to go flap out for an hour. Maybe 20 minutes tops. Do these K series really see super high temps in short track sessions? I didn't think thicker oil was necessary for light track use. There is that heat exchanger on the z3 and a2 motors that Honda calls an "oil cooler" lol.


Let me tell you my experience,

I previously had euro ep3 type-r, which has the same engine with RSX type-s (k20a2)

- When it was naturally aspirated, I used Mobil 1 0w40. Oil temperature went over 300+ F on the track. It rev'd up to 9100 rpm with kpro and basic mods like cold air intake, aftermarket intake manifold, throttle body, header and exhaust.
- I saw 250 F max when it was fully built turbocharged (up to 8600 rpm). I used Castrol Edge 10w60.

I always used OEM oil pump btw and oil pressure was always over 70 psi. Of course it was way higher than 0w40 when I used the 10w60. Also, the climate wasn't as hot as FL.

This Si has been my daily driver so that's why I've kept it mostly stock, no oil pressure/temp gauge, but I have decent experience with K series.

There's no "real" oil cooler as it only uses water coolant. That being said, we are talking about something over 190-200f trying to "cool" the oil down.

I am not pushing you to switch to thicker viscosity, assuming that you already have an oil pressure/temp gauges. So I would suggest you to see how it goes with 0w30 and decide afterwards. But don't forget to keep an eye on the oil pressure and temperature gauges.
 
Theoretically, a lighter oil should stay somewhat cooler, shouldn't it? I imagine the shearing forces associated with using 10w60 instead of xw30 oil in a tight honda engine would contribute to any bump in temperature. Although a thicker oil would protect better at an elevated temp, no doubt. And yes, I was referring to the stock oil cooler as a joke lol. Your advice is valuable to me, I don't find it to be pushy at all man. You obviously have more experience racing these cars than anyone I know.
 
Originally Posted By: dgunay

There's no "real" oil cooler as it only uses water coolant. That being said, we are talking about something over 190-200f trying to "cool" the oil down.


Sounds like your typical coolant/oil heat exchanger, which is pretty common for an oil cooler/heater in automotive applications. Depending on how they are sized and whether they are thermostatically controlled they can be very effective. My old M5 had a very large one that was extremely effective at keeping oil temps down.

And yes, coolant that is 190-200F would be effective at pulling heat out of something that is 300F given enough exposure. That's why it is effective at extracting heat from various parts of the engine that are also significantly hotter than it. A key component is the surface area of the exposure, so if the heat exchanger is quite small and gives little exposure, then its effectiveness is going to be much lower than a large exchanger with far more surface area.

Is this one of those little donut style exchangers by the filter? Looks like this:

ktuned.oilcoolerhoses4_d.jpg


If so I would certainly agree that its effectiveness is going to be minimal compared to some of the larger exchanger setups out there.

The purpose is not only to cool the oil but to heat it (which is why it uses coolant) which increases the effectiveness of the lubricant by allowing the temperature-dependant additives to activate earlier. Coolant comes up to temp much faster than the oil does normally and is of course thermostatically regulated to around the temperature range you've noted, which is also a very good temperature for the oil to be at. So getting the oil up to that temp and then keeping it around that temperature is ideal. Of course that little heat exchanger pictured above isn't going to be overly effective at keeping the oil at the same temp as the coolant and is probably easily overwhelmed.

Do they make a larger exchanger or is the general upgrade process in this app to go to a thermostatically controlled air-to-oil cooler?
 
Iron at 1 PPM per 1k mile and other metals at much less than 1 PPM are very good. Only thing you should pay attention to and fix if needed is the air filter/intake system, 17 PPM(2 PPM per 1k miles) silicon is a little high, previous UOA's had much lower silicon.
 
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