Is there any need for recycled oil?

[paulri]

I have been thinking about running NextGen,although it is a bit more expensive (at least in my neck of the woods) than straight conventional.

I came across this website, which says that there is no need to recycle oil, as there is already more than enough base stock (for motor oil) that is produced by the refining process, that cannot be used for anything else. The article is here.

Is this true or not? I don't see sources linked to on the page.

It also says that much used oil is burnt for electricity. It seems like that is a legitimate use of used oil. Is this used oil any dirtier than the oil used to power electric plants normally? I would suspect that these oil fired plants use a lot more oil than just what is recycled from motor oil.

 

[earlyre]

of course there is a need.
There is a federal mandate that govt owned vehicles must use re-refined oil if available. (Signed into law by Bill Clinton)

Saftey Kleen makes a brand of oil specifically for this use. they call it "America's Choice" IIRC..
Similar to their Eco-Power line(that they only sell to shops, won't sell to individuals, and no desire to retail...)

 

[Shannow]

paulri, sound reasoning IMO...

As long as all of the oil used in IC engines gets collected and doesn't end up in water or landfill, there is no reason to turn used oil into recycled oil...that's the epitome (IMO) of doing something because it feels good, when the right thing is in fact easier.

Yep, used oil can be burned, and satisfactorily.

A thermal (coal) power station uses 50,000 gals for a start-up, and probably 2,000 gals/day in combustion support...most of them were originally specced for diesel for that application, but can run up to 30% recycled oil in that with no worries.

Burning recycled oil means that less virgin diesel is burned...a much better outcome than nextgen IMO.

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
paulri, sound reasoning IMO...

As long as all of the oil used in IC engines gets collected and doesn't end up in water or landfill, there is no reason to turn used oil into recycled oil...that's the epitome (IMO) of doing something because it feels good, when the right thing is in fact easier.

Yep, used oil can be burned, and satisfactorily.

A thermal (coal) power station uses 50,000 gals for a start-up, and probably 2,000 gals/day in combustion support...most of them were originally specced for diesel for that application, but can run up to 30% recycled oil in that with no worries.

Burning recycled oil means that less virgin diesel is burned...a much better outcome than nextgen IMO.


Interesting--that is a second reason not to use NextGen.

Honestly I'm more than willing to run it--even to the point of paying Napa (local auto store, the only one that carries it) $5/qt to use it. But I'm not going to pay the same price that I'd pay for M1 at the local walmart, unless there was an overriding utility in doing so.

 

[R80RS]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
paulri, sound reasoning IMO...

As long as all of the oil used in IC engines gets collected and doesn't end up in water or landfill, there is no reason to turn used oil into recycled oil...that's the epitome (IMO) of doing something because it feels good, when the right thing is in fact easier.

Yep, used oil can be burned, and satisfactorily.

A thermal (coal) power station uses 50,000 gals for a start-up, and probably 2,000 gals/day in combustion support...most of them were originally specced for diesel for that application, but can run up to 30% recycled oil in that with no worries.

Burning recycled oil means that less virgin diesel is burned...a much better outcome than nextgen IMO.


Also used quite satisfactiorly blended into bunker fuel in ocean going ships.

 

[raytseng]

That page is a bit biased and their facts and stats are a bit old. In terms of back when synthetics were really synthetics and oil companies didnt find all the techniques to transform low value lubes into higher quality lubes, or even now changing gases into lubes.

Gone are the days of .39 quart oils, and I doubt his hot take that they just spray it on roads is really that frequent anymore.

End result is the same for end consumer collect and return your oil.

The market will determine how best to use it.

 

[BikeWhisperer]

From Synlube, who also wants to convince you that their product is good for 15 years or 150k miles...

 

[paulri]

I have no idea what that Synlube organization is, or if they are even still around. The webpage had a real 1990s feel to it--and I don't mean that in a good way.

But I am interested in the possibility that there is a surplus of crude oil that has no use other than being refined into motor oil. IMO if it is true, it would take a lot of the case away from running used oil in our cars.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: R80RS
Originally Posted By: Shannow
paulri, sound reasoning IMO...

As long as all of the oil used in IC engines gets collected and doesn't end up in water or landfill, there is no reason to turn used oil into recycled oil...that's the epitome (IMO) of doing something because it feels good, when the right thing is in fact easier.

Yep, used oil can be burned, and satisfactorily.

A thermal (coal) power station uses 50,000 gals for a start-up, and probably 2,000 gals/day in combustion support...most of them were originally specced for diesel for that application, but can run up to 30% recycled oil in that with no worries.

Burning recycled oil means that less virgin diesel is burned...a much better outcome than nextgen IMO.


Also used quite satisfactiorly blended into bunker fuel in ocean going ships.


Isn't that up to 2% max? Otherwise ash deposits would ruin their engines?

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: paulri
I
It also says that much used oil is burnt for electricity. It seems like that is a legitimate use of used oil. Is this used oil any dirtier than the oil used to power electric plants normally? I would suspect that these oil fired plants use a lot more oil than just what is recycled from motor oil.


I used to work at an electric power plant that sometimes burned recycled motor oil. It was the preferred type of oil to burn because at least it was refined good once.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: R80RS

Also used quite satisfactiorly blended into bunker fuel in ocean going ships.


Isn't that up to 2% max? Otherwise ash deposits would ruin their engines?


I think total ash is limited at 0.15%, including ash from original sources, so could add a fair bit of used engine oil.

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx

I used to work at an electric power plant that sometimes burned recycled motor oil. It was the preferred type of oil to burn because at least it was refined good once.


That's good to know.

 

[paulri]

Not sure how to interpret this: http://www.energyalmanac.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html

It appears to say that every barrel of crude oil produces all the various products listed--and that this isn't simply a percentage of what the barrels are turned in to. So its not as if anyone is pumping out a barrel of crude oil just because they are going to refine 100% of it into motor oil. If that 0.9% isn't refined into crude oil, it would either sit around and stink up the landscape, or be used/refined into some other type of fuel.

So then we can either refine that 0.9% into motor oil, or turn it into some other type of product---or let it sit and do nothing. If in fact this is what is going on, it seems that refining this into motor oil is actually doing something useful with all this stuff.

I sent off an email to Valvoline. I usually have no hope that emails like this are ever answered, but in fact I did get an answer when I emailed someone in regards to another thread I started here. So perhaps Valvoline will give me something to think about.

 

[Nyogtha]

Most petroleum refineries do not produce lubricating oil stocks.

Economies of scale have shown their hand in a big way in the past 40 years in the domestic refining industry.

The 0.9% you refer to is typically otherwise cracked into smaller molecules with lower boiling points. Such as diesel, kerosene / jet fuel, gasoline, propane, maybe even ethylene that is subsequently recovered and used to produce PAO somewhere, or propylene that someplace else uses to produce antifreeze, etc.

It does not "sit around somewhere stinking up the landscape".

FWIW, Valvoline discontinued their NextGen line of motor oil a while back. What you find is remaining old stock. You should ask your local retailer for a discount on it rather than pay a premium for it.

Some refineries are built around running a specific grade of crude to make lube stocks - most have ceased operation as technologies such as hydroprocessing grew to produce Group II and Group III base stocks. The American Refining Group / Brad Penn refinery is one of the few left on this continent.

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

The 0.9% you refer to is typically otherwise cracked into smaller molecules with lower boiling points. Such as diesel, kerosene / jet fuel, gasoline, propane, maybe even ethylene that is subsequently recovered and used to produce PAO somewhere, or propylene that someplace else uses to produce antifreeze, etc.

It does not "sit around somewhere stinking up the landscape".


If that is the case, then indeed there is a purpose and function in the economy for recycled oil. It will allow crude to be refined into other petroleum products.

Valvoline discontinuing the NextGen line at least explains why that product has been so hard to find.

 

[PandaBear]

It is cheaper to just coarsely filter used oil and then burn it as bunker oil or diesel in large burner / engine. It is easy to re-refine engine oil, but it is not as cost effective as diesel or bunker oil would still be used and at a higher cost, and then you have to charge just as much to refine used oil.

Then you add a lot of new cars that spec synthetic to start with, it just doesn't make sense to make a dino re-refined oil for retail shelf.

 

[paulri]

Part of the issue for me is what that "look at what we make out of a barrel of crude oil" pic really means (see the second to the last post on page 1 of this thread).

If in fact the entire contents of a 40+gallon barrel of crude is needed to make 2.5 quarts of motor oil, then it seems hard to say that this is the most efficient use of resources, when we can make a lot of gasoline (a lot more than 2 quarts) with the same barrel. Which in turn would mean that it is best to recycle used oil, as the specs on that are about 1 gallon of used oil, to make 2.5 quarts of "new" motor oil.

But if they make all that gas, AND the 2.5 quarts of motor oil, *from the same barrel,* then it seems like we might as well refine a bit of it to make motor oil. We really aren't taking away the ability to do lots of things with the crude oil, by refining a small part of each barrel into motor oil.

 

[raytseng]

The thing is they can make anything into anything, and that chart is the end products, not the intermediary stocks.

The invisible hand of the market to determine what is the best use of those stock streams. Then even with the stock streams, they can convert anything to anything else-if it is worth it.

So the .9% breakdown for lubricants is not set in stone, it's the current breakdown.
It can grow or shrink based on supply or demand. If it turns out people only like pennzoil ultra, they can then make the .9% of lubricants from the gas stream and dump the liquid goo that would be previously used into the bunker fuel mix, or make plastic cups out of it or whatever.

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
The invisible hand of the market to determine what is the best use of those stock streams. Then even with the stock streams, they can convert anything to anything else-if it is worth it.

So the .9% breakdown for lubricants is not set in stone, it's the current breakdown.
It can grow or shrink based on supply or demand. If it turns out people only like pennzoil ultra, they can then make the .9% of lubricants from the gas stream and dump the liquid goo that would be previously used into the bunker fuel mix, or make plastic cups out of it or whatever.


OK, so then the original article linked to in the first post is incorrect, in suggesting that there are large stocks of crude oil that have no function apart from being refined into motor oil.

I suppose now, the question is: is it more efficient to refine used oil into "new" oil, and let the crude be refined into other products, or should we continue to refine crude into motor oil, and then hope that we can still use the used oil in some other capacity (as in, hope it doesn't get dumped somewhere).

 

[Nyogtha]

The article with the 0.9% figure, IMEO, shows the product distribution for crude refined in California, at some period in time.

IIRC Chevron (Richmond) is the main producer of lube stocks in California.

Chevron also has a large lube base oil operation in Mississippi (Pascagoula), but there is less total refining capacity in Mississippi. The lube figure is likely larger than 0.9% there, and the Pascagoula refinery likely runs a different crude slate than the average California refinery crude slate. California refineries have preferential access to crude from Alaska as well as California on shipping cost basis. Gulf Coast refineries have preferential access to Gulf crudes as well as crudes from Mexico, South American countries like Venezuela and Brazil, and the Middle East - relative to California refineries.

Motiva has a large lube base oil facility in Texas (Port Arthur); ExxonMobil has large lube base stock production facilities in Texas (Baytown and Beaumont). There is a huge concentration of the US refining capacity concentrated along the Gulf Coast.

The proportion of products made by any refinery are a function of refinery configuration, refining technologies employed, and crude slate fed to the refinery. Heavy crude oils from Mexico and Venezuela were originally processed for their high quantity and quality of asphalt. Changes in technology, including high cost materials of construction (metallurgy) account for refineries currently processing those crudes to yield a lot of gasoline & diesel, heavy fuel oil, and in some cases, petroleum coke instead of asphalt.

Used motor oil being re-refined into lube stocks for re-use depends on government support, both in the US where about 10% of used motor oil is re-refined into base stocks, and Europe where approximately 50% of used motor oil is re-refined into lube base stocks. Pure market dynamics favor other routes of re-use.