No, it is going to be hard to compare, aside from an ILSAC 0w-30 to an ILSAC 10w-30, which will have an HTHS difference of possibly 0.1. However, we all know that the fuel economy difference isn't going to be measurable anyhow. That being said, I'm not going after SAE 30 or SAE 40 for the summers.
Cold flow here is overrated
- Thread starter dlundblad
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: meborder
Yes it was meant to be sarcastic.
But having shaken a bottle of 5w30 (penz plat) next to a bottle of 0w30 (m1 afe) at about -15f I can tell you there is a clear difference between the two.
I can also tell you that this truck will start fine all the way down to -20f even with 10w30, however it wont stay running without help from the skinny pedal, whereas with 5w30 it will start and stay running on its own.
I'd like to know how 0w30 wouldn't be any better than 5w30 at those kind of temps, though. Sure, 5w is fine... But then again, so is hamburger. That don't mean that steak isn't better, though.
Have you ever started a carbureted vehicle at -15f or colder?
Okay I misunderstood 0w basics at those temps.
I will say that this thread wasn't directed to someone like you who sees temperatures like this regularly. Yes 5w30 would work, but ideally the 0w would be "better."
On here at least, folks seem to preach that a 0w is needed for anything below freezing.
Yes it was meant to be sarcastic.
But having shaken a bottle of 5w30 (penz plat) next to a bottle of 0w30 (m1 afe) at about -15f I can tell you there is a clear difference between the two.
I can also tell you that this truck will start fine all the way down to -20f even with 10w30, however it wont stay running without help from the skinny pedal, whereas with 5w30 it will start and stay running on its own.
I'd like to know how 0w30 wouldn't be any better than 5w30 at those kind of temps, though. Sure, 5w is fine... But then again, so is hamburger. That don't mean that steak isn't better, though.
Have you ever started a carbureted vehicle at -15f or colder?
Okay I misunderstood 0w basics at those temps.
I will say that this thread wasn't directed to someone like you who sees temperatures like this regularly. Yes 5w30 would work, but ideally the 0w would be "better."
On here at least, folks seem to preach that a 0w is needed for anything below freezing.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
On here at least, folks seem to preach that a 0w is needed for anything below freezing.
People want the best for their cars.
On here at least, folks seem to preach that a 0w is needed for anything below freezing.
People want the best for their cars.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
On here at least, folks seem to preach that a 0w is needed for anything below freezing.
The one that I LOL at is that 0W is "better" in Florida
+1. I overheard someone say the other day they need to switch to synthetic because winter is coming. Meanwhile, this is miami. Now I can say I' ve heard it all
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
On here at least, folks seem to preach that a 0w is needed for anything below freezing.
The one that I LOL at is that 0W is "better" in Florida
+1. I overheard someone say the other day they need to switch to synthetic because winter is coming. Meanwhile, this is miami. Now I can say I' ve heard it all
Originally Posted By: Garak
The only thing to possibly add is that usually, a 0w-30, for instance, will have a higher VI than a 10w-30 of similar HTHS, and that might get some tiny fuel economy gains, at least under certain circumstances. That being said, I don't chase VI or MRV numbers, either. I [safely] assume that using a reasonable lube, particularly within what's specified for an engine, will give me a sufficient VI to not drain my fuel dollars (or, more accurately, pennies or centi-pennies in this context) and appropriate cold cranking numbers to not leave me stranded or wreck the engine in one winter.
but if you're not carefull in the selection of your 0w or 5w oil, you end up with significantly higher noack and possibly lower hths. so besides pointless, it could be harmfull aswell.
The only thing to possibly add is that usually, a 0w-30, for instance, will have a higher VI than a 10w-30 of similar HTHS, and that might get some tiny fuel economy gains, at least under certain circumstances. That being said, I don't chase VI or MRV numbers, either. I [safely] assume that using a reasonable lube, particularly within what's specified for an engine, will give me a sufficient VI to not drain my fuel dollars (or, more accurately, pennies or centi-pennies in this context) and appropriate cold cranking numbers to not leave me stranded or wreck the engine in one winter.
but if you're not carefull in the selection of your 0w or 5w oil, you end up with significantly higher noack and possibly lower hths. so besides pointless, it could be harmfull aswell.
Well, those aren't terribly difficult pitfalls to overcome, as long as one knows a little bit about specifications and uses their lubricants as intended. Most 0w-XX lubes will be synthetic, so that gives a bit of an edge when it comes to Noack, anyhow. One can easily find a dexos1 licensed 0w-20 to 0w-30 to 5w-30, and that helps limit Noack, too. That covers the SN/GF-5 and A1/B1 A5/B5 type lubricants. If one is going into 40 grades, there often are ACEA and builder approvals on the oils, so that's not terribly difficult, either, considering several of them limit Noack.
As for HTHS, well, it's always the case of knowing what you're buying. GC 0w-30 isn't competing for the same buyers that M1 0w-30 is; nor is Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 with Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30. Looking at specifications can make it very easy to get a sensible, year round oil choice, without winding up out of specification when it comes to HTHS or Noack.
With my Delvac 1, I'm not worried about its cold flow, HTHS, or Noack.
As for HTHS, well, it's always the case of knowing what you're buying. GC 0w-30 isn't competing for the same buyers that M1 0w-30 is; nor is Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 with Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30. Looking at specifications can make it very easy to get a sensible, year round oil choice, without winding up out of specification when it comes to HTHS or Noack.
With my Delvac 1, I'm not worried about its cold flow, HTHS, or Noack.
Thin oil flows great when cold, but once it's hot and thins down even thinner, it's too thin to lubricate.
At what point would that be, Merk? Your favorite oil viscosity is as thin at operating temperature as ILSAC rated 5w-30 and 0w-30 options. While you don't need to be chasing a 0w-XX in your climate, the 10w-XX similarly doesn't grant you magical protection at operating temperatures.
All this worrying about using a 5wXX at -15F and such. Makes me wonder how any motor survived back in the 60's and 70's when I owned my first vehicles that all lasted a long, long time. Many of us, most of the time were still using straight weights frequently and if we did use a multi vis variety, mostly a 10w30 or 10w40. Something like a 0w30, 0w40, 0w20 was virtually unheard of. Even my semi truck today still uses a 15w40 even down at -25F. Last two motors both went over 1 million miles without falling apart. This one with about 460,000 on it is in great shape also. But I am knuckling under to requests from my oil supplier and giving a 10w30 a try in it and see the results. But a 5w30 in my pickup is about as extreme as I will ever put in it.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
All this worrying about using a 5wXX at -15F and such. Makes me wonder how any motor survived back in the 60's and 70's when I owned my first vehicles that all lasted a long, long time. Many of us, most of the time were still using straight weights frequently and if we did use a multi vis variety, mostly a 10w30 or 10w40. Something like a 0w30, 0w40, 0w20 was virtually unheard of. Even my semi truck today still uses a 15w40 even down at -25F. Last two motors both went over 1 million miles without falling apart. This one with about 460,000 on it is in great shape also. But I am knuckling under to requests from my oil supplier and giving a 10w30 a try in it and see the results. But a 5w30 in my pickup is about as extreme as I will ever put in it.
Well back in the 90's when I lived in the soviet union if it was so frigging cold and you had a "domestic" car you stuck a hand crank in the front bumper and went to town trying to start it or at least warm it up so you can start it.
Here in Buffalo NY last winter was pretty brutal and when you have an older/weaker battery it makes all the difference during the cold morning starts.
I driving a lot and comparing start ups in similar temperatures my 0w oil performed better compared to 5W or out could be because it was new?
All this worrying about using a 5wXX at -15F and such. Makes me wonder how any motor survived back in the 60's and 70's when I owned my first vehicles that all lasted a long, long time. Many of us, most of the time were still using straight weights frequently and if we did use a multi vis variety, mostly a 10w30 or 10w40. Something like a 0w30, 0w40, 0w20 was virtually unheard of. Even my semi truck today still uses a 15w40 even down at -25F. Last two motors both went over 1 million miles without falling apart. This one with about 460,000 on it is in great shape also. But I am knuckling under to requests from my oil supplier and giving a 10w30 a try in it and see the results. But a 5w30 in my pickup is about as extreme as I will ever put in it.
Well back in the 90's when I lived in the soviet union if it was so frigging cold and you had a "domestic" car you stuck a hand crank in the front bumper and went to town trying to start it or at least warm it up so you can start it.
Here in Buffalo NY last winter was pretty brutal and when you have an older/weaker battery it makes all the difference during the cold morning starts.
I driving a lot and comparing start ups in similar temperatures my 0w oil performed better compared to 5W or out could be because it was new?
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: pbm
I have often wondered how much of a difference 5w20 makes over 5w30 in my NY winter where 0*F would be the coldest seen?
Now that most OTC syns are Group III, I'm wondering if a 5w30 syn. is actually that much better than 5w30 dino at cold start flow? (that was the main advantage of PAO).
I have done 'freezer tests' on some oils and many are like molasses at below zero temps.
After all "most engine wear happens at cold start up" so I don't think "cold flow is overrated".....
By the PQIA...
PYB 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 6,077
PP 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 4,154
Yeah, that's a pretty big difference. Similar results for Mobil conventional vs M1.
Understood....but -30*C is equal to about -22*F.
How much would this difference matter at a more reasonable 0*F to single digits *F which is the coldest I normally see.??
Originally Posted By: pbm
I have often wondered how much of a difference 5w20 makes over 5w30 in my NY winter where 0*F would be the coldest seen?
Now that most OTC syns are Group III, I'm wondering if a 5w30 syn. is actually that much better than 5w30 dino at cold start flow? (that was the main advantage of PAO).
I have done 'freezer tests' on some oils and many are like molasses at below zero temps.
After all "most engine wear happens at cold start up" so I don't think "cold flow is overrated".....
By the PQIA...
PYB 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 6,077
PP 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 4,154
Yeah, that's a pretty big difference. Similar results for Mobil conventional vs M1.
Understood....but -30*C is equal to about -22*F.
How much would this difference matter at a more reasonable 0*F to single digits *F which is the coldest I normally see.??
it wouldn't matter at all
Originally Posted By: Rust_Belt_Pete
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
All this worrying about using a 5wXX at -15F and such. Makes me wonder how any motor survived back in the 60's and 70's when I owned my first vehicles that all lasted a long, long time. Many of us, most of the time were still using straight weights frequently and if we did use a multi vis variety, mostly a 10w30 or 10w40. Something like a 0w30, 0w40, 0w20 was virtually unheard of. Even my semi truck today still uses a 15w40 even down at -25F. Last two motors both went over 1 million miles without falling apart. This one with about 460,000 on it is in great shape also. But I am knuckling under to requests from my oil supplier and giving a 10w30 a try in it and see the results. But a 5w30 in my pickup is about as extreme as I will ever put in it.
Well back in the 90's when I lived in the soviet union if it was so frigging cold and you had a "domestic" car you stuck a hand crank in the front bumper and went to town trying to start it or at least warm it up so you can start it.
Here in Buffalo NY last winter was pretty brutal and when you have an older/weaker battery it makes all the difference during the cold morning starts.
I driving a lot and comparing start ups in similar temperatures my 0w oil performed better compared to 5W or out could be because it was new?
Well, my semis have operated in upper Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan on a regular basis year round. They have never failed to start on a cold morning with 15w40. To be fair, without access to a outlet for the block heater, I will start it up for about a half hour every 4 hrs or so in extreme cold. Most time, down into sub zero territory, it just sits for a 10 hr break and gets started at the end of the break. None of that fuel wasting idling all night that some may do, which has its own lubrication issues that can lead to spun bearings and such.
But also to be fair, now that my oil supplier has twisted my leg sufficiently into using a 10w30 syn blend in my semi's, that should make things easier on it. I just have no desire to use any kind of 5wXX or 0wXX in it. Now my pickup, it came from the factory with 5w30 and that is what is recommended, so that is what I put in it. No motivation at all to use a 0w30 in it and see no appreciable benefit.
And I lived in the interior of Alaska for 10 years. Never used anything other than a 5w30 in my personal stuff and never had any motor issues or failures. Granted, when it was averaging around -35F or lower, you can be sure that the block heater was plugged in, the oil pan heater was plugged in, and the battery blanket was plugged in. Never had any starting issues down to -72F, the lowest temp I ever experienced.
OOPS, have to backtrack a little. I did have to replace a rear main seal once in the 351M in my '79 Bronco in Alaska.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
All this worrying about using a 5wXX at -15F and such. Makes me wonder how any motor survived back in the 60's and 70's when I owned my first vehicles that all lasted a long, long time. Many of us, most of the time were still using straight weights frequently and if we did use a multi vis variety, mostly a 10w30 or 10w40. Something like a 0w30, 0w40, 0w20 was virtually unheard of. Even my semi truck today still uses a 15w40 even down at -25F. Last two motors both went over 1 million miles without falling apart. This one with about 460,000 on it is in great shape also. But I am knuckling under to requests from my oil supplier and giving a 10w30 a try in it and see the results. But a 5w30 in my pickup is about as extreme as I will ever put in it.
Well back in the 90's when I lived in the soviet union if it was so frigging cold and you had a "domestic" car you stuck a hand crank in the front bumper and went to town trying to start it or at least warm it up so you can start it.
Here in Buffalo NY last winter was pretty brutal and when you have an older/weaker battery it makes all the difference during the cold morning starts.
I driving a lot and comparing start ups in similar temperatures my 0w oil performed better compared to 5W or out could be because it was new?
Well, my semis have operated in upper Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan on a regular basis year round. They have never failed to start on a cold morning with 15w40. To be fair, without access to a outlet for the block heater, I will start it up for about a half hour every 4 hrs or so in extreme cold. Most time, down into sub zero territory, it just sits for a 10 hr break and gets started at the end of the break. None of that fuel wasting idling all night that some may do, which has its own lubrication issues that can lead to spun bearings and such.
But also to be fair, now that my oil supplier has twisted my leg sufficiently into using a 10w30 syn blend in my semi's, that should make things easier on it. I just have no desire to use any kind of 5wXX or 0wXX in it. Now my pickup, it came from the factory with 5w30 and that is what is recommended, so that is what I put in it. No motivation at all to use a 0w30 in it and see no appreciable benefit.
And I lived in the interior of Alaska for 10 years. Never used anything other than a 5w30 in my personal stuff and never had any motor issues or failures. Granted, when it was averaging around -35F or lower, you can be sure that the block heater was plugged in, the oil pan heater was plugged in, and the battery blanket was plugged in. Never had any starting issues down to -72F, the lowest temp I ever experienced.
OOPS, have to backtrack a little. I did have to replace a rear main seal once in the 351M in my '79 Bronco in Alaska.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
If you are using a block heater any comments about the oil's cold temperature ability become moot because the oil is not at ambient temperature.
The CCS/MRV stuff is relevant to people doing unaided starts.
The CCS/MRV stuff is relevant to people doing unaided starts.
Originally Posted By: pbm
We all understand that 0w20 and 0w30 are better in -30* weather but my simple question is...does 5w20 perform as well as 0w20 in my climate where 0*F is the coldest expected? How about 5w30 compared to 5w20 in the same situation?
There's two things at work there.
First is the ability to get oil to the pump, that's the MRV spec. If the oil is pumpable, the pump will shift the same volume per revolution regardless, and push the air out of the galleries at the same rate...should be no difference...
But if it's marginal, it will still be viscous in the galleries, and could cause some of this oil to be returned to the sump.
Here's a chart I lifted from a paper. RAOT is the time for oil to flow out of the rocker arms on this engine, this test. FOPT is Full Oil Pressure Time.
Looking at the shortest of the times, would indicate that the volume flow of the pump, on that engine, with a fully pumpable oil would get oil to the rockers in under 6 seconds, and full oil pressure at 6.
The SAE30 can do that at 30F, the 5W20 at 12 F...so if you were starting at 30F, there would be no difference between any of the "W"s, and the SAE 30.
The next line down, is what I'm assuming is the latter case in my previous description, where the oil is thick enough to open the relief, and not fill the galleries as quickly...i.e. oil pressure is there, but the rocker arm oiling time is doubled.
The SAE 30 is doing that at 20F, the 10W30 at 9F, and the 5W20 at -11F.
Those are still relatively acceptable, but clearly for 0F operation, you would chose the 5W of all of those oils. 5W20/5W30 should not show a difference, as the MRV is the "5W" part, the hot viscosity isn't a factor here(*)...
I don't think a "0W" would do any better than the 5W at filling the galleries...at 0F.
Second part is the CCS, Cold Cranking Simulator, which is a high shear measure designed to test the "startability" of the engine. Basically, the starter motor needs to spin the engine at a speed sufficient for it to go.
Here's some tests
Test engine (the engines behave differently, the Jeep 4.0 seems to be a hard to start machine in papers I've read), different oils, different temperatures, and a bar for easy starting, poor stating, and no starting.
Like the MRV, the different W ratings give the same behaviours, just at different (colder) temperatures.
(*) Note that two 10Ws are tested, a straight 10W, and a 10W30, and true to the "W" grading they are close.
We all understand that 0w20 and 0w30 are better in -30* weather but my simple question is...does 5w20 perform as well as 0w20 in my climate where 0*F is the coldest expected? How about 5w30 compared to 5w20 in the same situation?
There's two things at work there.
First is the ability to get oil to the pump, that's the MRV spec. If the oil is pumpable, the pump will shift the same volume per revolution regardless, and push the air out of the galleries at the same rate...should be no difference...
But if it's marginal, it will still be viscous in the galleries, and could cause some of this oil to be returned to the sump.
Here's a chart I lifted from a paper. RAOT is the time for oil to flow out of the rocker arms on this engine, this test. FOPT is Full Oil Pressure Time.
Looking at the shortest of the times, would indicate that the volume flow of the pump, on that engine, with a fully pumpable oil would get oil to the rockers in under 6 seconds, and full oil pressure at 6.
The SAE30 can do that at 30F, the 5W20 at 12 F...so if you were starting at 30F, there would be no difference between any of the "W"s, and the SAE 30.
The next line down, is what I'm assuming is the latter case in my previous description, where the oil is thick enough to open the relief, and not fill the galleries as quickly...i.e. oil pressure is there, but the rocker arm oiling time is doubled.
The SAE 30 is doing that at 20F, the 10W30 at 9F, and the 5W20 at -11F.
Those are still relatively acceptable, but clearly for 0F operation, you would chose the 5W of all of those oils. 5W20/5W30 should not show a difference, as the MRV is the "5W" part, the hot viscosity isn't a factor here(*)...
I don't think a "0W" would do any better than the 5W at filling the galleries...at 0F.
Second part is the CCS, Cold Cranking Simulator, which is a high shear measure designed to test the "startability" of the engine. Basically, the starter motor needs to spin the engine at a speed sufficient for it to go.
Here's some tests
Test engine (the engines behave differently, the Jeep 4.0 seems to be a hard to start machine in papers I've read), different oils, different temperatures, and a bar for easy starting, poor stating, and no starting.
Like the MRV, the different W ratings give the same behaviours, just at different (colder) temperatures.
(*) Note that two 10Ws are tested, a straight 10W, and a 10W30, and true to the "W" grading they are close.
- Status