Birds and Bats killed by Wind Energy Systems

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Originally Posted By: Shannow

Back in the bad old days of centralised regulation the process would have happened, but it would have been planned, to keep the fundamentals robust and phase in/out technologies. Current "market forces" (can't say that in a world of subsidies) have too many "lumps" in the process.


Certainly can't say we haven't thrown a ton of money at solar and wind here. Doesn't seem to be any plan at all...

Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($43 million)*
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Schneider Electric ($86 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
 
Yet somehow the lights manage to stay on.

If your wind turbines cannot self excite. Well that's just a plain old fashion poor design.

And coal is very hard to black start. There's something like 60mw in auxiliaries needed.
 
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And we've had the argument before Steve, coal units do not control frequency. You still need the 30-100mw range gas turbines to do that.

Maybe you need to come here and go to powergen and other power tech conferences to get an handle on things.

Maybe you'll see me presenting a paper.
 
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Also Steve, because you're an expert you surely understand that you don't need a generating plant to provide voltage/var support. Synchronous condensers and capacitor banks provide that function.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Yet somehow the lights manage to stay on.

If your wind turbines cannot self excite. Well that's just a plain old fashion poor design.

And coal is very hard to black start. There's something like 60mw in auxiliaries needed.


60MW ? Where do you get your numbers turtle ?
Just plain make them up ?

Inrush on the first large drive is maybe 35 for a few seconds. House load for run-up 25MW.

The State's "black start" manual starts a hydro or GT, then is desperate for a thermal to get in, loading and shedding until they get more of them on.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Yet somehow the lights manage to stay on.

If your wind turbines cannot self excite. Well that's just a plain old fashion poor design.


Like I said, they get a free kick...and the lights in S.A. WILL go off one day.

BTW, where's the self exciting wind power, and what's it worth...a mna of your capabilities would have the numbers at your finger tips...or the ability to make them up on the spot.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
And we've had the argument before Steve, coal units do not control frequency. You still need the 30-100mw range gas turbines to do that.

Maybe you need to come here and go to powergen and other power tech conferences to get an handle on things.


You are just plain wrong on that turtle...we've been over it before, maybe you should talk to your contacts, because my country does just fine 360 of the 365 days without GT peakers...all on the shoulders of coal.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Also Steve, because you're an expert you surely understand that you don't need a generating plant to provide voltage/var support. Synchronous condensers and capacitor banks provide that function.


Of course they can and do...BTW, what's the most common way of obtaining a synchronous condenser ?

Cut the turbine off a power generator.

Again, you reinforce my point...wind doesn't provide those ancilliary services...someone else has to fund, operate and maintain those equipment...a free kick for wind again.

I really find your claims of being power industry hard to swallow, unless you are being disingenuous in pushing whatever it is your agenda is.
 
And just so the audience can work out which of us is talking out their rear...

Here's the Australian rules and guides for frequency response.

http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/Market-and-Power-Systems/Ancillary-Services/~/media/Files/Other/electricityops/0160-0048%20pdf.ashx

https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/Policies-and-Procedures/System-Operating-Procedures/~/media/Files/Other/SystemOperatingProcedures/so_op3708av13.ashx

Wow, thermals and governors...who would have thought.
 
Inverters can quite easily control frequency with the firing angle and vars with the voltage tap. If your network of wind turbines can't provide the support you are so concerned about, someone has done a terrible job of designing the thing.

You're just way behind on what today's technology can do......captain dunsel.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Yet somehow the lights manage to stay on.

If your wind turbines cannot self excite. Well that's just a plain old fashion poor design.

And coal is very hard to black start. There's something like 60mw in auxiliaries needed.


60MW ? Where do you get your numbers turtle ?
Just plain make them up ?

Inrush on the first large drive is maybe 35 for a few seconds. House load for run-up 25MW.



Inrush? It takes days to start a cold coal boiler. A good part of a day for a warm one.

Since they're putting in gts and engine sets, engineers there disagree with you one the practicality of large coal units providing frequency control. A engine or gt are so very simple to throttle. A big coal unit has many systems that must follow each other and have serious ramp rate limitations. What do you do with all the steam in that boiler when throttling down quickly. Its not efficient to keep dumping it into the condenser or venting to atmosphere.

You really need to talk to some power guys there instead of slamming their plan as political.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Now I know you've never seen one operating turtle.

You can stop digging.


Roy S Nelson, Westlake LA. Its been a while. Generation is not my expertise. Apparently not yours either.
 
Well then why do you say stuff that's patently untrue ?

Steam turbine will have typically 5% of CMR governing margin while at load, available instantly...controls will catch up within seconds, and ramp rates of 2-3% per minute are achievable and sustainable (tested at 10% CMR per minute during acceptance tests).

Yet you claim a) that it's impossible, and b) that it's dangerous...can't be both.

60MW in house load for a cold start, and it takes days ?
20-25MW would get one off the deck, 24 hours start filling to synch is pretty usual (forced circulation will shave 6 hours off it). Hot, less than 2 hours, have seen 45 mins...why claim 2, 3, or more ?
 
Originally Posted By: Burt
Originally Posted By: tinmanSC
Both are a bit silly. They are both far out weighted by the number of birds house cats kill every year. Back when I had a cat he used to get 5 or 6 a year.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year


So the answer is for every tower that is installed, we need to kill 10 cats a year?! Count me in.
A "house cat" is a cat which STAYS IN THE HOUSE.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
And we've had the argument before Steve, coal units do not control frequency. You still need the 30-100mw range gas turbines to do that.

Maybe you need to come here and go to powergen and other power tech conferences to get an handle on things.

Maybe you'll see me presenting a paper.

Don't dislocate your shoulder.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
And DDT killed how many eagles?

Do you know saving thousands Bald Eagles by banning production/sale/use of DDT worldwide, this ban causes millions African died of malaria disease ?

It is okay to completely ban DDT in America, we can use other methods(expensive) to control mosquito, but for poor countries in Africa DDT was the best they can afford to reducing deaths by malaria causes by mosquito.

If you do some research about DDT, you will find that we pressured UN Health Organization to ban DDT back in the '70, even someone did warn that the effect of the ban will cause millions to die of malaria in Africa. We ignored it because we think that saving 1 bald eagle is worth more than the life of thousands poor African.

Every time I saw someone mention about DDT I felt so sad. Exchanging 1 bald eagle for thousands life is not what a human being should do.

It's not nice to bring up such an inconvenient truth. Now we have been told that the so called "silent spring" tests were rigged by depriving birds in the test of the calcium they needed for strong egg shells so the blame could rest on "DDT".
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Well then why do you say stuff that's patently untrue ?

Steam turbine will have typically 5% of CMR governing margin while at load, available instantly...controls will catch up within seconds, and ramp rates of 2-3% per minute are achievable and sustainable (tested at 10% CMR per minute during acceptance tests).

Yet you claim a) that it's impossible, and b) that it's dangerous...can't be both.

60MW in house load for a cold start, and it takes days ?
20-25MW would get one off the deck, 24 hours start filling to synch is pretty usual (forced circulation will shave 6 hours off it). Hot, less than 2 hours, have seen 45 mins...why claim 2, 3, or more ?



We can sit around and argue numbers. Its not like hitting a button and being at full output in 1 minute like a ct or diesel.

I think coal has a place. Its nowhere as versatile as you say. And creates pollution that will be around for thousands of years. Piles of mercury ridden ash as big as towns.

I just call it like I see it. I have no dog in the hunt. I'm a t&d guy.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
[ I'm a t&d guy.



I'm a leg man.
banana2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We can sit around and argue numbers. Its not like hitting a button and being at full output in 1 minute like a ct or diesel.


Gone from doesn't happen to this ?

In the first dseconds es of that minute, the coaler has thrown on 5% of it's CMR, that's 30-40MW per unit (just how big ARE your fast start GTs and diesels)...that's minimum response or face a fine.

And in the meantime, the wind is just sitting there doing what it did before the event...being carried by the rest of the machines running.

Best-in-Class-Response-for-Primary-Frequency-Control-Source-Wartsila-Power-Plants-for-web.jpg


Note that the Y axis is percent of CMR.
 
You guys might like this:

Ontario-Sep-2013-1024x744.jpg


That's Ontario (obviously). We have roughly 14,000MW of installed Nuclear capacity with Darlington, Pickering and the big boy, Bruce (7,276MW).

You can see how the 'nukes respond to the turbines dumping power on the grid.
 
OVERKILL...I was told that was impossible...who'dathunkit ???

And note, when the wind drops, as the nukes have spinning reserve, they come up and cover it ....
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


You can see how the 'nukes respond to the turbines dumping power on the grid.


No I don't think that's what's happening there.

You need to find the article connected to that graph and explain what the graph means. The replaced generation doesn't even match. Nukes don't run up and down all day like that.

Both you guys are dangerous. Just stick to bearings and installing windows and networks.

Engineering deserves respect. Linking to garbage articles and filling out formulas on engineering tool box isn't engineering.

Its really insulting to us that do this for a living.
 
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