Who else is cheating on emissions?

[Jetronic]

I can explain that...

IF you design the exhaust manifold in such a way that you have a relatively high pressure there to aid high pressure EGR feedback, there's a BSFC to be had with the EGR valve open VS closed. This is how most HP EGR systems are setup as it's easy and cheap to do.

However, if you have a low pressure in the exhaust manifold there's a definite BSFC to be had at all times, but EGR is trickier to implement. You'll likely need to close a throttle valve partially to induce a lower pressure in the intake manifold and suck in exhaust gas.

I removed the EGR and the restriction in the exhaust on a previous car (very tight radius and very small diameter bend just after the turbo) and gained a LOT efficiency. not much to be gained or maybe nothing without redesigning the exhaust.

Newer engines use the DPF to create a higher pressure upstream.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: CT8
Who else is cheating on emissions? Who really cares!


Particulate matter from diesels is a known health issue.

I don't think it's wrong for people to care about the air they breathe.


It's trivial though. Unlike gasoline emissions that rise into the upper levels of the atmosphere - particulate matter settles to the ground.


Who lives at ground level? Last I checked I walk on the ground. Particulate are responsible for a lot respiratory issues adult & child related it takes a long time to settle to the ground and will easily be stirred up.

Not to diminish gasoline emissions reacting in the upper atmosphere either but neither should be treated as a non issue. Especially cold start emissions on both.

 

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I can explain that...

IF you design the exhaust manifold in such a way that you have a relatively high pressure there to aid high pressure EGR feedback, there's a BSFC to be had with the EGR valve open VS closed. This is how most HP EGR systems are setup as it's easy and cheap to do.

However, if you have a low pressure in the exhaust manifold there's a definite BSFC to be had at all times, but EGR is trickier to implement. You'll likely need to close a throttle valve partially to induce a lower pressure in the intake manifold and suck in exhaust gas.

I removed the EGR and the restriction in the exhaust on a previous car (very tight radius and very small diameter bend just after the turbo) and gained a LOT efficiency. not much to be gained or maybe nothing without redesigning the exhaust.

Newer engines use the DPF to create a higher pressure upstream.


Jetronic, your replies still aren't showing any facts or details. Please explain in detail how EGR aids in the efficiency of combustion, or the pumping losses associated with a diesel engine. I understand 100% how they help with BSFC due to pumping loss reduction in a spark ignition engine. I have been studying diesel engines for quite some time, and have not run across any evidence that even properly applied EGR can lead to an improvement in BSFC.

 

[Joe90_guy]

As someone who considers himself well versed in 'the black arts' , can I point out that VW very foolishly broke the first and cardinal rule of cheating....DON'T GET CAUGHT!

 

[Joe90_guy]

If only everything in life was as deniable as a Volkswagen (on-road emissions test)...

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
As someone who considers himself well versed in 'the black arts' , can I point out that VW very foolishly broke the first and cardinal rule of cheating....DON'T GET CAUGHT!


The first and cardinal rule is never trust any test you haven't rigged yourself. The second rule is don't get caught ....

 

[Joe90_guy]

The third rule of successfully cheating is Don't Be Greedy!

It is better to garner the accumulated effect of lots of little cheats than rely on a single big cheat. Wasn't it that notorious German (the only with one testicle) who first said 'If you're going to tell a lie, tell a big lie!' That strategy didn't exactly work out for him and it looks like it didn't work out for VW either.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
The consequences of this situation is that it will broaden the reach of the EPA, probably even down to the individual auto/pickup owner. Of those states that do emissions testing, one can envision tough regulations being applied to the owners over what the OEM or third party was responsible for. In other words, a monster might have been unleashed. I sure hope not, but I have learned over the years that government agencies, once they have been dissed, usually over react and are going to make some parties pay for their insolence and make everyone toe the party line with little regard who it negatively affects.
I tend to agree. For the many who have "deleted" their light-duty diesel, I see the VW transgression as an enlightening that may focus the spotlight down to that level--especially in the metro areas. I have no plans to alter mine because to be honest, I like the fact that it does not smoke or smell.


Nice isn't it? I love my Dmax for the same reason.

But I totally agree, this could be a terribly good excuse to bring back individual emission testing....

 

[spackard]

...In Europe, emissions-testing is a farce. The carmakers commission their own tests, and regulators let them indulge in all sorts of shenanigans, such as removing wing mirrors during testing, and taping up the cracks around doors and windows, to reduce drag and thus make the cars burn less fuel. Regulators also tolerate software a bit like VW’s, that spots when a car is being tested and switches the engine into “economy” mode. This is why the fuel efficiency European motorists achieve on the road is around 40% short of carmakers’ promises.

At least America’s regulators, unlike Europe’s, sometimes stage their own tests to verify the manufacturers’ findings.

Source: The Economist

So where the average BITOG American thinks Europe has it great because they have lighter cars; we load them down with safety when they get to our shores and that kills performance and mileage, the truth includes radically different fuel mileage testing standards.

 

[chrisri]

I'm sorry to say but this is utter nonsense. 40% over ECE norm consumption? Sure.
As for American market cars being safer, there's simply different tests cars need to comply.
Road kills by 100000 vehicles;
USA 13,6
Italy 7,6
Germany 6,9.

Source: Wikipedia

 

[Vikas]

Shouldn't roadkills be measured as per million vehicle-miles driven rather than only based upon number of vehicles?

Learn to understand how statistics is abused.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: DriveHard
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I can explain that...

IF you design the exhaust manifold in such a way that you have a relatively high pressure there to aid high pressure EGR feedback, there's a BSFC to be had with the EGR valve open VS closed. This is how most HP EGR systems are setup as it's easy and cheap to do.

However, if you have a low pressure in the exhaust manifold there's a definite BSFC to be had at all times, but EGR is trickier to implement. You'll likely need to close a throttle valve partially to induce a lower pressure in the intake manifold and suck in exhaust gas.

I removed the EGR and the restriction in the exhaust on a previous car (very tight radius and very small diameter bend just after the turbo) and gained a LOT efficiency. not much to be gained or maybe nothing without redesigning the exhaust.

Newer engines use the DPF to create a higher pressure upstream.


Jetronic, your replies still aren't showing any facts or details. Please explain in detail how EGR aids in the efficiency of combustion, or the pumping losses associated with a diesel engine. I understand 100% how they help with BSFC due to pumping loss reduction in a spark ignition engine. I have been studying diesel engines for quite some time, and have not run across any evidence that even properly applied EGR can lead to an improvement in BSFC.


to build the pressure in the exhaust manifold, the engine has to pump. redirecting exhaust gasses back to the intake relieves some of this pressure and reduces pumping losses. Closing the EGR will result in higher BSFC, I suspect that's what was done in the paper referenced a few posts above.

BUT, if you properly design the exhaust to have little backpressure, there's absolutely no benefit of BSFC through reduced pumping losses via EGR.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Shouldn't roadkills be measured as per million vehicle-miles driven rather than only based upon number of vehicles?

Learn to understand how statistics is abused.


roadkills says more about the state of the infrastructure than the safety of the cars, IMO...

In Belgium, there are more traffic deaths in the Walloon region than in Flanders, driving the same cars. The Walloon region is quite hilly though (ardennes)

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Shouldn't roadkills be measured as per million vehicle-miles driven rather than only based upon number of vehicles?

Learn to understand how statistics is abused.


roadkills says more about the state of the infrastructure than the safety of the cars, IMO...

In Belgium, there are more traffic deaths in the Walloon region than in Flanders, driving the same cars. The Walloon region is quite hilly though (ardennes)


I'm not sure. Croatia have great infrastructure yet people are getting killed like flies (over 16 deaths by 100k cars). Driving culture and habits are also factor here.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Shouldn't roadkills be measured as per million vehicle-miles driven rather than only based upon number of vehicles?

Learn to understand how statistics is abused.


roadkills says more about the state of the infrastructure than the safety of the cars, IMO...

In Belgium, there are more traffic deaths in the Walloon region than in Flanders, driving the same cars. The Walloon region is quite hilly though (ardennes)


I'm not sure. Croatia have great infrastructure yet people are getting killed like flies (over 16 deaths by 100k cars). Driving culture and habits are also factor here.


true, but neither has much to do with the crash rating of the car...

 

[Garak]

I think the real issue about the "crash rating" in this conversation has to do with the fact that the regulations are substantially different in North America versus Europe (not better or worse) and they add a significant amount of weight to our vehicles. Couple that with everyone wanting AC, power everything, and an automatic, and things get heavy.

 

[Gasbuggy]

Everyone sell your TDIs and get old Mercedes turbo diesels. That will show the EPA.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I think the real issue about the "crash rating" in this conversation has to do with the fact that the regulations are substantially different in North America versus Europe (not better or worse) and they add a significant amount of weight to our vehicles. Couple that with everyone wanting AC, power everything, and an automatic, and things get heavy.

95% of the cars siold in Europe now have AC and "power everything". Automatics are lagging, but catching on.

How much does a dart weigh? the Italian cousin weighs about 2900 pounds (without glass roof) but is narrower and shorter.