Cold flow here is overrated
- Thread starter dlundblad
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Go with the flow!
Ya, pressure is the real thing to look:
"When hot to cold, look out below".
Martha King
"When hot to cold, look out below".
Martha King
I have often wondered how much of a difference 5w20 makes over 5w30 in my NY winter where 0*F would be the coldest seen?
Now that most OTC syns are Group III, I'm wondering if a 5w30 syn. is actually that much better than 5w30 dino at cold start flow? (that was the main advantage of PAO).
I have done 'freezer tests' on some oils and many are like molasses at below zero temps.
After all "most engine wear happens at cold start up" so I don't think "cold flow is overrated".....
Now that most OTC syns are Group III, I'm wondering if a 5w30 syn. is actually that much better than 5w30 dino at cold start flow? (that was the main advantage of PAO).
I have done 'freezer tests' on some oils and many are like molasses at below zero temps.
After all "most engine wear happens at cold start up" so I don't think "cold flow is overrated".....
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
-15F? No, they won't be. That's almost -30C, which is the CCS temp for the 5w-30 grade. The 0w-30 will be MUCH thinner; probably HALF as thin, at that temperature.
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
-15F? No, they won't be. That's almost -30C, which is the CCS temp for the 5w-30 grade. The 0w-30 will be MUCH thinner; probably HALF as thin, at that temperature.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
-15F? No, they won't be. That's almost -30C, which is the CCS temp for the 5w-30 grade. The 0w-30 will be MUCH thinner; probably HALF as thin, at that temperature.
Like I said, review the spec sheets. We don't know what meborder is running.
Half as thin? How can you be sure?
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
-15F? No, they won't be. That's almost -30C, which is the CCS temp for the 5w-30 grade. The 0w-30 will be MUCH thinner; probably HALF as thin, at that temperature.
Like I said, review the spec sheets. We don't know what meborder is running.
Half as thin? How can you be sure?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
-15F? No, they won't be. That's almost -30C, which is the CCS temp for the 5w-30 grade. The 0w-30 will be MUCH thinner; probably HALF as thin, at that temperature.
Like I said, review the spec sheets. We don't know what meborder is running.
Half as thin? How can you be sure?
Due to the halving rule. Take your typical 5w-30, it is limited to a max CCS cP of 6600 @ -30C. At anything below around -15C, viscosity measured via CCS or MRV roughly double per every 5C.
A 0w-xx has to be below 6,200cP @ -35C, which turns into 3,100cP @ -30C.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: meborder
Dangit!
There goes my idea of using 0w30 in my plow truck to help it start at -15f ....
Sonny-beach ....
I hope this is meant to be sarcastic.
At these temps, 5w30 and 0w30 could very well be identical.
You better research your oils spec sheets.
-15F? No, they won't be. That's almost -30C, which is the CCS temp for the 5w-30 grade. The 0w-30 will be MUCH thinner; probably HALF as thin, at that temperature.
Like I said, review the spec sheets. We don't know what meborder is running.
Half as thin? How can you be sure?
Due to the halving rule. Take your typical 5w-30, it is limited to a max CCS cP of 6600 @ -30C. At anything below around -15C, viscosity measured via CCS or MRV roughly double per every 5C.
A 0w-xx has to be below 6,200cP @ -35C, which turns into 3,100cP @ -30C.
Yes it was meant to be sarcastic.
But having shaken a bottle of 5w30 (penz plat) next to a bottle of 0w30 (m1 afe) at about -15f I can tell you there is a clear difference between the two.
I can also tell you that this truck will start fine all the way down to -20f even with 10w30, however it wont stay running without help from the skinny pedal, whereas with 5w30 it will start and stay running on its own.
I'd like to know how 0w30 wouldn't be any better than 5w30 at those kind of temps, though. Sure, 5w is fine... But then again, so is hamburger. That don't mean that steak isn't better, though.
Have you ever started a carbureted vehicle at -15f or colder?
But having shaken a bottle of 5w30 (penz plat) next to a bottle of 0w30 (m1 afe) at about -15f I can tell you there is a clear difference between the two.
I can also tell you that this truck will start fine all the way down to -20f even with 10w30, however it wont stay running without help from the skinny pedal, whereas with 5w30 it will start and stay running on its own.
I'd like to know how 0w30 wouldn't be any better than 5w30 at those kind of temps, though. Sure, 5w is fine... But then again, so is hamburger. That don't mean that steak isn't better, though.
Have you ever started a carbureted vehicle at -15f or colder?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: pbm
I have often wondered how much of a difference 5w20 makes over 5w30 in my NY winter where 0*F would be the coldest seen?
Now that most OTC syns are Group III, I'm wondering if a 5w30 syn. is actually that much better than 5w30 dino at cold start flow? (that was the main advantage of PAO).
I have done 'freezer tests' on some oils and many are like molasses at below zero temps.
After all "most engine wear happens at cold start up" so I don't think "cold flow is overrated".....
By the PQIA...
PYB 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 6,077
PP 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 4,154
Yeah, that's a pretty big difference. Similar results for Mobil conventional vs M1.
I have often wondered how much of a difference 5w20 makes over 5w30 in my NY winter where 0*F would be the coldest seen?
Now that most OTC syns are Group III, I'm wondering if a 5w30 syn. is actually that much better than 5w30 dino at cold start flow? (that was the main advantage of PAO).
I have done 'freezer tests' on some oils and many are like molasses at below zero temps.
After all "most engine wear happens at cold start up" so I don't think "cold flow is overrated".....
By the PQIA...
PYB 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 6,077
PP 5W30 Viscosity @ -30ºC mPa s (cP) (ASTM D5293) 4,154
Yeah, that's a pretty big difference. Similar results for Mobil conventional vs M1.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Ya, pressure is the real thing to look:
"When hot to cold, look out below".
Martha King
"From high to low, look out below!" is the actual quote. You screw everything up.
Ya, pressure is the real thing to look:
"When hot to cold, look out below".
Martha King
"From high to low, look out below!" is the actual quote. You screw everything up.
I actually don't worry as much about getting the oil up into the engine, when it is -20F......My concern is it getting back down into the pan, to make another trip! The pump will get it up there.....But only gravity will get that syrup back into the sump.
OVERKILL is correct, at the -15 Start.
That's the whole principal behind adopting the xW system, to define and test an oil's ability to start and pump at extreme temps.
No extreme temps, it's pointless chasing it, as you don't need it...15W or 20W would get me by any day of the year...and still provide exactly the same start-up "flow" as a 0W.
That's the whole principal behind adopting the xW system, to define and test an oil's ability to start and pump at extreme temps.
No extreme temps, it's pointless chasing it, as you don't need it...15W or 20W would get me by any day of the year...and still provide exactly the same start-up "flow" as a 0W.
The only thing to possibly add is that usually, a 0w-30, for instance, will have a higher VI than a 10w-30 of similar HTHS, and that might get some tiny fuel economy gains, at least under certain circumstances. That being said, I don't chase VI or MRV numbers, either. I [safely] assume that using a reasonable lube, particularly within what's specified for an engine, will give me a sufficient VI to not drain my fuel dollars (or, more accurately, pennies or centi-pennies in this context) and appropriate cold cranking numbers to not leave me stranded or wreck the engine in one winter.
Originally Posted By: Garak
The only thing to possibly add is that usually, a 0w-30, for instance, will have a higher VI than a 10w-30 of similar HTHS, and that might get some tiny fuel economy gains, at least under certain circumstances.
Yeah, I'll pay that...but my experience is limited in that when running a 15W40, the HTHS is typically well over 4, while the higher VI5W and 0Ws I've run couple the VI with a 3.6-3.8HTHS...I've not been able to do apples and apples.
The only thing to possibly add is that usually, a 0w-30, for instance, will have a higher VI than a 10w-30 of similar HTHS, and that might get some tiny fuel economy gains, at least under certain circumstances.
Yeah, I'll pay that...but my experience is limited in that when running a 15W40, the HTHS is typically well over 4, while the higher VI5W and 0Ws I've run couple the VI with a 3.6-3.8HTHS...I've not been able to do apples and apples.
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