I am going to have to put this head on myself.

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Win
HeliCoils hold spark plugs, OK. The website (Stanley Engineered Fastening) lists engine blocks as an application.

I think it would hold fine, but I don't see it happening in any event.


In an iron block they'll hold fine. Aluminum is the concern here.


Maybe. The manufacturer doesn't specifically list head bolt threads, but it doesn't exclude them, either. The cylinder pressures don't pop the spark plug helicoils out. The clamping force on the head is more distributed. I don't see why it wouldn't hold with a HeliCoil.

Regardless, I think this is much ado about nothing. I just don't see it happening under or by OP.


Experience says they are prone to failure. Check out the number of helicoiled Northstar blocks that they pulled out of. They are fine in iron but in Aluminum you want an insert, that's one of the main reasons they exist.

 

[Astro14]

I don't think the Heli-coil is strong enough either.

I don't like the "big bolt" idea - for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the length would be nearly impossible to duplicate. Too long - it bottoms out and doesn't clamp. Too short - it pulls out the threads because of insufficient thread engagement.

If you're going to screw this thing up further by substituting one bolt out of 10, then at least put a threaded stud in there with a nut on on top so that the length is correct.

But I still don't like it...I like the purpose-built insert (Time-sert or others) best if it's determined that the block threads are buggered up...

 

[Clevy]

I've used he heli-coil thread inserts is ford 2v heads many times. Never had one pull out or fail. The heads are alum.

However if Joseph and his lack of attention as well as inability to focus and follow specific instruction could end up in disaster.
After seeing that drill exercise though it's already a disaster.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Turtlevette - you trolling again?

What I've said about head bolts is true.

I have a feeling that you've never done a head before or you would know that you can't just install a larger bolt. You would have to get a flanged bolt of that precise length in the next larger size.

But even then, it won't stretch properly. So it won't seal up correctly. It won't last. It'll just cause a warped head and leaks down the road...further damaging this already damaged car.

Your amateurish suggestion doesn't help the OP. It doesn't get him on the road any sooner.

So I have to wonder why you keep pushing a bad idea?


Because its the easier path. Torque clamping force and bolt stretch is not as critical as you say. Especially in this little low HP 4 popper. But keep on. Maybe you've finally "got me" on something. I've not known any flyboys that get their hands greasy. Your advice sounds like it comes out of the book.




Stereotype much?

I was trying to keep thread on track...but since you want to take it personal...

I mentioned earlier in this thread that my first cylinder head job was in 1975, or thereabouts, most recent was 3 years ago.

This is the Mercedes M113 six-cylinder head on my work bench...fixing a coolant leak with the 300E. It was losing coolant slowly, but not externally...cylinder #6 was squeaky clean inside...I think I know where that coolant was going...



New head gasket fixed it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
I've used he heli-coil thread inserts is ford 2v heads many times. Never had one pull out or fail. The heads are alum.


There's a rather massive difference between the 15lb-ft a spark plug in a 2V takes and the 90 or so lb-ft a head bolt takes however.

And helicoils have been known to "thread out" of the 2V heads which is why the proper (and only Ford sanctioned) fix is the Lock-N-Stitch insert.

If this was an iron block I'd be fine with a helicoil (as I noted earlier) but I am not a fan of them in aluminum, which is why the inserts were developed, to make up for the shortcomings present when using a helicoil in a high stress application where failure is likely and you are looking to recreate the original strength and clamping ability.

 

[Astro14]

Sorry, took me too long to upload.

Here's the head off the 300E.

I don't do just engines...I had occasion to dig into the transmissions on both Volvos. I shared my work with my fellow Volvo owners on this site.

http://www.volvoxc.com/0/resources/how-to/pdf/2002-V70-XC-Valve-Body-Replacement-Notes.pdf

You'll notice the clever use of the same screen name...

Cheers,
Astro

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
I believe it's time to update the scoreboard!

JcCadilliacMobile Start 02/04/10 End 05/11/10 Posts 356
OilBlazer93 Start 05/17/10 End 05/27/10 Posts 39
HomerJ5w40 Start 05/31/10 End 06/09/10 Posts 45
HangerHarley Start 06/10/10 End 12/27/10 Posts 1239
Gearheadtool Start 03/31/12 End 02/27/13 Posts 1711
technologs Start 04/03/13 End 10/27/13 Posts 2606
MalfunctionProne Start 11/26/14 End 02/19/15 Posts 1499
InfmousCornholio Start 4/22/15 End 09/26/15 Posts 686
GHT Start 9/26/15

Someone should keep track of the vehicles he's destroyed.
What's the point of this assortment of names?

 

[Astro14]

It's suspected that all these names are the same guy...who gets banned and comes back...

Looks like he's on a vacation at the moment...

I do wish him luck...this was one of many threads in which folks, including me, tried to help him with his problems...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
I believe it's time to update the scoreboard!

JcCadilliacMobile Start 02/04/10 End 05/11/10 Posts 356
OilBlazer93 Start 05/17/10 End 05/27/10 Posts 39
HomerJ5w40 Start 05/31/10 End 06/09/10 Posts 45
HangerHarley Start 06/10/10 End 12/27/10 Posts 1239
Gearheadtool Start 03/31/12 End 02/27/13 Posts 1711
technologs Start 04/03/13 End 10/27/13 Posts 2606
MalfunctionProne Start 11/26/14 End 02/19/15 Posts 1499
InfmousCornholio Start 4/22/15 End 09/26/15 Posts 686
GHT Start 9/26/15

Someone should keep track of the vehicles he's destroyed.
What's the point of this assortment of names?


As Astro surmised, these are all the OP's aliases over the years. He probably holds the record for being banned the most times.

 

[Clevy]

B
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I've used he heli-coil thread inserts is ford 2v heads many times. Never had one pull out or fail. The heads are alum.


There's a rather massive difference between the 15lb-ft a spark plug in a 2V takes and the 90 or so lb-ft a head bolt takes however.

And helicoils have been known to "thread out" of the 2V heads which is why the proper (and only Ford sanctioned) fix is the Lock-N-Stitch insert.

If this was an iron block I'd be fine with a helicoil (as I noted earlier) but I am not a fan of them in aluminum, which is why the inserts were developed, to make up for the shortcomings present when using a helicoil in a high stress application where failure is likely and you are looking to recreate the original strength and clamping ability.


Fair enough. So does the compression and exploding fuel not factor in to the insert in the head?

Whether ford approved it or not I ran 200000kms on my 2v with a helicoil in each head. When the 3rd plug spit is when I decided to go 4v.

I never considered Bolt stretch and the obvious in regards to trying a helicoil in a head bolt.
Makes sense. It may hold tight for a while but once it stretches and over many miles it is a potential failure point and it's not like a plug where only pressure from 1 cylinder is being held back,it's gotta hold the entire head down which is 4 cylinders m
Thanks overkill. Makes complete sense.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
I believe it's time to update the scoreboard!

JcCadilliacMobile Start 02/04/10 End 05/11/10 Posts 356
OilBlazer93 Start 05/17/10 End 05/27/10 Posts 39
HomerJ5w40 Start 05/31/10 End 06/09/10 Posts 45
HangerHarley Start 06/10/10 End 12/27/10 Posts 1239
Gearheadtool Start 03/31/12 End 02/27/13 Posts 1711
technologs Start 04/03/13 End 10/27/13 Posts 2606
MalfunctionProne Start 11/26/14 End 02/19/15 Posts 1499
InfmousCornholio Start 4/22/15 End 09/26/15 Posts 686
GHT Start 9/26/15

Someone should keep track of the vehicles he's destroyed.
What's the point of this assortment of names?

As Astro surmised, these are all the OP's aliases over the years. He probably holds the record for being banned the most times.


Ha. Yep.


However we have a couple guys now who register 2 names at once,just in case their one persona gets canned.
It's funny. A person knows they are a jerk so they prepare for the inevitable ban by having an extra alias for when the time comes.


He's not a bad guy. He just has "special needs".
If he was capable of focus,and following a single methodology he might actually finish fixing one or more of his projects however because he tries to run in 2directions at once all projects end up recycled.
He's got a good heart. He just needs focus.
And self discipline.
Both can be taught as long as a person is willing. To both teach and learn.

He'll be back.

 

[Bandito440]

He never left! Username GHT was registered yesterday, when Cornholio was put on vacation.

 

[Astro14]

The heli-coil on a plug only has to hold against the cylinder pressure over the area of the plug...roughly 14mm diameter...so, roughly 150mm2...

This engine has a 75mm bore...so, the area of each cylinder (which is held by 4 bolts) is 4400 mm2...or about 28 times greater...so each head bolt is holding several times the force that acts on a sparkplug...if you're looking at only the pressure wave from combustion.

But cylinder head bolts are stretched against the expansion of the cylinder head itself. That's a whole order of magnitude greater than the sparkplug having to keep itself in place...

Now, if you're going to replace a head bolt...any specialty bolt, actually, it's a lot better to use a stud and nut...that way, you solve the length problem: you get complete thread engagement, with no bottoming, and get a good hold...

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
The heli-coil on a plug only has to hold against the cylinder pressure over the area of the plug...roughly 14mm diameter...so, roughly 150mm2...

This engine has a 75mm bore...so, the area of each cylinder (which is held by 4 bolts) is 4400 mm2...or about 28 times greater...so each head bolt is holding several times the force that acts on a sparkplug...if you're looking at only the pressure wave from combustion.

But cylinder head bolts are stretched against the expansion of the cylinder head itself. That's a whole order of magnitude greater than the sparkplug having to keep itself in place...

Now, if you're going to replace a head bolt...any specialty bolt, actually, it's a lot better to use a stud and nut...that way, you solve the length problem: you get complete thread engagement, with no bottoming, and get a good hold...


Now that is going above and beyond for an explanation. Thank you Astro.

Once I thought about it I saw overkills point and it made perfect sense. Now that you've got figures to go with it I see its exponentially more than what I had considered.
But your slacking. Where's the graph with overlays(kidding)
Thanks again for the insight. I'm reminded of what made bitog great


Originally Posted By: Bandito440
He never left! Username GHT was registered yesterday, when Cornholio was put on vacation.


Ha. I rest my case.

If he put as much effort into fixing his projects as he does re-registering at bitog he'd have a fleet of great running vehicles.

If we could just focus him on one task at a time instead of him doing oil changes on vehicles he just changed and heads removed exposing cylinders to open air he would be a wizard.
Focus,and instead of him thinking of a better method if he'd just stick to tried and true practices he'd be rockin.
He needs a teacher. One with patience.

 

[Astro14]

Your question made me wonder about the relative surface area (on which the pressure of combustion would act)...

But I've left out the expansion of the head itself...since it's aluminum, it'll expand with a different coefficient than the bolts...I suspect that this is part of why the bolts are set deep in the block - longer bolt length yields more thermal expansion in the steel so that it more closely matches the expansion of the aluminum head. But that's just a guess...

Anyway, these bolts are stretched under torque...so the load on the block threads, or the heli-coil, is high...

As for our friend...clearly focus is the issue...and I think, had he been able to follow some of the advice he was given, he could still be driving the Volvo. I wish him well...though I don't know that he'll be able to save this car...the combination of thread damage and exposure/corrosion may be too much to overcome. I want him to do those checks first - engine stuck? Yes? junk it. No? check threads. Threads bad? No? Well, there's hope. Yes...well, with help they can be addressed...with help...

I think a lot of the guys pcking on him forget the teacher/mentor they once had...and how clueless they were when they first picked up a wrench.

At the start, I had my Dad, who enlisted my help on the Packard when I was ten years old. That was 42 years ago...and dozens of shop manuals and a few mistakes along the way have taught me, too...

 

[[email protected]]

Very interesting thread, lol. I am pretty sure (as a long time member here) that I have seen his past threads with his now banned user names that pretty much play out "the same way".

After watching his videos, and having family members with this specific issue, I think the OP might have something like Aspergers Syndrome, or in that spectrum somewhere. So like somebody else said, after reading everything I sense no malice whatsoever, but a lack of ability to detect social cues. Oh, and no focus. lol.

Just MHO. In the meantime, this is as good as the guy who trolled that mustang forum a few years ago, and said he flushed his engine with a garden hose, haha.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Astro14


If you're going to screw this thing up further by substituting one bolt out of 10, then at least put a threaded stud in there with a nut on on top so that the length is correct.



I kinda like that idea. Crank the studs in until they bind up. The ones that are too loose could be wrapped with Teflon tape to get an interference fit to hold. They're probably about 100 bucks or more though.

He'll never get through the correct installation of one insert much less 10, so something like that is more doable.

I don't think this guy has any ADHD ADD or any problem. He doesn't have any problem with internet stuff. Getting videos on line within seconds, spoofing ip addresses and such. The "oh help me I know nothing about cars" act gets him the audience he craves.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Your question made me wonder about the relative surface area (on which the pressure of combustion would act)...

But I've left out the expansion of the head itself...since it's aluminum, it'll expand with a different coefficient than the bolts...I suspect that this is part of why the bolts are set deep in the block - longer bolt length yields more thermal expansion in the steel so that it more closely matches the expansion of the aluminum head. But that's just a guess...

Anyway, these bolts are stretched under torque...so the load on the block threads, or the heli-coil, is high...

As for our friend...clearly focus is the issue...and I think, had he been able to follow some of the advice he was given, he could still be driving the Volvo. I wish him well...though I don't know that he'll be able to save this car...the combination of thread damage and exposure/corrosion may be too much to overcome. I want him to do those checks first - engine stuck? Yes? junk it. No? check threads. Threads bad? No? Well, there's hope. Yes...well, with help they can be addressed...with help...

I think a lot of the guys pcking on him forget the teacher/mentor they once had...and how clueless they were when they first picked up a wrench.

At the start, I had my Dad, who enlisted my help on the Packard when I was ten years old. That was 42 years ago...and dozens of shop manuals and a few mistakes along the way have taught me, too...


I agree that some here who find him an easy target forget that they were green enough to plant at one time. And some learn better than others.
Joseph is the kind of guy who needs to be shown,actually demonstrated,then I think he'd never forget.
But it's tough for him to mentally picture what many are trying to explain,so he starts off getting defensive and loses his cool.
Regardless I think with some focus,and not biting off more than he can chew he would do ok.
Tearing into engines is beyond his skill level presently. That's all. And it's nothing to be ashamed of.
I remember when this place was a polite,hospitable forum where everyone was happy to help one another and a rude word was rare and not accepted.
Now even I find myself being a jerk and getting lippy,rather than just not posting.
We've lost something here,or gained something. Whichever it is the vibe here has changed,sadly.
I still remember days when we could all say our piece in a respectful manner and everyone learned something from the exchange and no one took anything personally. Now even I find myself looking to dig at specific members.
It's a weakness within myself and something I'll need to get over.
I miss the days when we had 10 page threads and not a single insult or derogatory post was made to anyone personally.
Now we can't get through 2 pages without someone talking trash.
I guess it's to be expected with growth. It's like immigrants coming intp town. You can't shoot them so you gotta find a way to get along.

Thanks again for the great breakdown. I find that stuff interesting. It's like when Shannow gets in depth and technical. I end up needing a few days to absorb everything.

 

[camrydriver111]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't think this guy has any ADHD ADD or any problem. He doesn't have any problem with internet stuff. Getting videos on line within seconds, spoofing ip addresses and such. The "oh help me I know nothing about cars" act gets him the audience he craves.


I agree. This guys is just trolling.

 

[Bandito440]

If he wasn't posting videos, I'd be skeptical of the stories. The Volvo was an incredible trainwreck.

His behavior is very self-destructive. He leaves a trail of dismantled cars and wasted money in his wake. I bet he's vaporized $10,000 in just the past few vehicles that I've seen him destroy. That's a serious investment in trolling, if it's the case.

Jason doesn't have his own place or a running car, but he has three broken vehicles at his parents' house, forcing his mom to park on the street. He spends every penny he earns as soon as he cashes his paychecks, whether that be on broken vehicles, Seafoam, energy drinks, or paying giant women to squash him (really). At one point recently, he was on public assistance, which meant that taxpayers were footing the bills for the above.

He does need some regular therapy and a good mentor. The lack of personal finance knowledge and self-discipline is what brings him down this road over and over again. Some sort of ADHD, autism, and/or depression is possibly going on here. I'm not a medical professional, so I can't really offer much there.

He is smart enough to realize that his decisions are self-destructive, but he doesn't have the discipline to make changes. Instead, he keeps buying junk, asking for advice, ignoring it, and destroying that junk.

I think it's best to ignore him. When we try to help with his vehicle nonsense, we're just enabling the behavior. Unless he gets some help with his behavioral issues, this is just a cycle that will continue to repeat.