Can Renewable Energy meet baseload power

[Cujet]

Yes, I watched the video.

I just came back from Strausberg, Germany. They re-purposed old Russian military airports for solar farms. Many many homes and business' have extensive PV solar. Even some highways are lined with extensive PV arrays.

They also have innumerable wind turbines. While flying over the countryside, the wind turbines are seemingly everywhere, mostly in large "wind farms".

Even so, renewable energy produces only 25% of the consumption. It's truly amazing how aggressively they've implemented the renewable energy plans. Full disclosure, I absolutely love alternative energy.

The only complaint I heard was the number of birds killed by the wind turbine farms.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

I see this as a big thing going forward as panels improve. But at 1500 its merely a curiosity and will never pay for itself.


For me the pay off would be around 7 years.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ

For me the pay off would be around 7 years.

Yea and thats assuming that the photcells don't degrade (which they do)and it functions for that period of time.

Don't get me wrong..I like the idea though. But the cost in energy to make it and the payout for me (I am 69 soon to move to retirement living) isn't there.

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

Solar panels are generally guaranteed to 80% output after 20-25 years. The electronics are generally quite good.

Small wind plants are generally noisy, there are height restrictions in many places and wind is generally less available than sunlight so most small renewable energy plants are PV.

I'm curious about the shape of the residential load curve and how the early morning spike can be flattened and shifted. If it's water heating that creates such a spike then a smart water heater and better hot water storage could do a lot.

 

[SHOZ]

Here's some actual data that my coop has on Renewable Energy installations within their district.

http://www.eiec.org/efficiency/renewable-energy-data/

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner

I'm curious about the shape of the residential load curve and how the early morning spike can be flattened and shifted. If it's water heating that creates such a spike then a smart water heater and better hot water storage could do a lot.


Out of interest, this is how they do it in Denmark.

"Most heat consumers - 6 out of 10 - receive their heat from public heat supply. This is an area in which plants have been built and pipes laid in the ground to deliver hot water (or steam) - known as district heating (DH) - or natural gas to consumers.

HEATING DENMARK'S 2.5 MILLION HOUSEHOLDS

Electric heat: 6%
Oil: 18%
Natural gas: 15%
DH without electricity generation: 4%
Co-generated heat and electricity in small and medium-sized cities: 17%
Co-generated heat and electricity in large cities: 37%
Heat pumps: 0.4%
Solid fuel: 3%"


Iimagineit would go a long way to flatten hot water energy spikes.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

I see this as a big thing going forward as panels improve. But at 1500 its merely a curiosity and will never pay for itself.


27c/KWHr (the coal powered part of that is 3c) shifts the math pretty quickly.

One of my guys installed 5KW, at $1,000/KW, and has taken $1,500 p.a. off his bills.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Solar panels are generally guaranteed to 80% output after 20-25 years. The electronics are generally quite good.


Which is great as long as the company making them is still in business when you need warranty. Half of our local farm had the panels drop well below spec after only a few years and the company that sold them was gone. The utility had to foot the bill for replacing them (which means we, as the taxpayer, are footing the bill).

Now of course weather has an effect on the life of these things and with our snow loads, that's probably a significant factor.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

You can get a 30% tax credit for installing it.


Citation/link?

Last I looked, decent us made panels were around $1/watt, as were the enphase type inverter that you describe. Add some kit to mount it, conductors, etc, and the cost creeps up. I think freight really hurt the costs too.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

You can get a 30% tax credit for installing it.


Citation/link?

Last I looked, decent us made panels were around $1/watt, as were the enphase type inverter that you describe. Add some kit to mount it, conductors, etc, and the cost creeps up. I think freight really hurt the costs too.
ebay, there are many different sized setups.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

You can get a 30% tax credit for installing it.


Citation/link?

Last I looked, decent us made panels were around $1/watt, as were the enphase type inverter that you describe. Add some kit to mount it, conductors, etc, and the cost creeps up. I think freight really hurt the costs too.
ebay, there are many different sized setups.


Free shipping too.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

You can get a 30% tax credit for installing it.


Citation/link?

Last I looked, decent us made panels were around $1/watt, as were the enphase type inverter that you describe. Add some kit to mount it, conductors, etc, and the cost creeps up. I think freight really hurt the costs too.
ebay, there are many different sized setups.


And anything that is an actual panel with roof mounting and the appropriate terminations and a complete kit is more like $1000 for a single panel (250W) kit. Most everything on eBay just ends with a 12v setup and an inverter.

Maybe I'm searching eBay wrong, but those prices are consistent with the single panel DIY kits available from the bigger vendors online too. Problem is that nobody is going to spend )
$1000 (even if it's like $666 after tax break) for 250W. These kits need to come down to a price that is low enough, and with smart controls that prevent requiring huge additions and nods to the home power system.

Around us, our utility has put single panel enphase units on every pole that has good sun access. I suspect that if they're doing that, they aren't that concerned with lineman's safety?

Anyway, I think one of two panels per home, available as turnkey at the $1/w level installed, is what is necessary to make good inroads. Instead, current pricing is more like:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/system/gridtie-starter-kit-1-solar-panel.html

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

You can get a 30% tax credit for installing it.


Citation/link?

Last I looked, decent us made panels were around $1/watt, as were the enphase type inverter that you describe. Add some kit to mount it, conductors, etc, and the cost creeps up. I think freight really hurt the costs too.
ebay, there are many different sized setups.


And anything that is an actual panel with roof mounting and the appropriate terminations and a complete kit is more like $1000 for a single panel (250W) kit. Most everything on eBay just ends with a 12v setup and an inverter.

Maybe I'm searching eBay wrong, but those prices are consistent with the single panel DIY kits available from the bigger vendors online too. Problem is that nobody is going to spend )
$1000 (even if it's like $666 after tax break) for 250W. These kits need to come down to a price that is low enough, and with smart controls that prevent requiring huge additions and nods to the home power system.

Around us, our utility has put single panel enphase units on every pole that has good sun access. I suspect that if they're doing that, they aren't that concerned with lineman's safety?

Anyway, I think one of two panels per home, available as turnkey at the $1/w level installed, is what is necessary to make good inroads. Instead, current pricing is more like:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/system/gridtie-starter-kit-1-solar-panel.html
Yes you are searching wrong.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40...ms&_sacat=0

 

[JHZR2]

Sorry, not seeing true turnkey grid tie panel + inverter kits for much less than $1000 for $1kw.

First turnkey system I saw was around the pricing I mentioned.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/1000-Watts-Solar-P...6691?nav=SEARCH

Not seeing a single panel with single inverter kit.

But it's veering off topic. My point is that if kits like this existed, readily available and turnkey, at a reasonable cost, prices will drop because volume will go way up.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Sorry, not seeing true turnkey grid tie panel + inverter kits for much less than $1000 for $1kw.

First turnkey system I saw was around the pricing I mentioned.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/1000-Watts-Solar-P...6691?nav=SEARCH

Not seeing a single panel with single inverter kit.

But it's veering off topic. My point is that if kits like this existed, readily available and turnkey, at a reasonable cost, prices will drop because volume will go way up.


That ebay search is for a 1000w system. 4-250w panels,inverter and necessary connection hardware.

If you just want a single 250w panel and inverter you need to search for a 250w solar system.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

You can get a 1kw solar panel system with inverter for around $1500. Simple plug into the wall type connection if you wanted it that way. Inverter shuts down if there is no grid power.

You can get a 30% tax credit for installing it.
Citation/link?

Last I looked, decent us made panels were around $1/watt, as were the enphase type inverter that you describe. Add some kit to mount it, conductors, etc, and the cost creeps up. I think freight really hurt the costs too.
ebay, there are many different sized setups.
Yes you are searching wrong.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40...ms&_sacat=0

If one carefully reads over the link you provided, there are a number of missing & questionable specifications. For example, where is a UL listing? How about CSA? China is an ocean's length away when it comes to warranty & support. Note the inverter is rated for indoor use only! + there is no current rating spec @ 220V. True sinewave??? According to who?

And I have yet to even address proper mounting...PT Barnum was right! Caveat Emptor!

 

[SHOZ]

If I were to do this they would be on the ground.

 

[Al]

Just saw this:

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/t...night_that.html

"At 3 a.m., wind was supplying about 30 percent of the state’s electricity."

"The so-called spot price of electricity in Texas fell toward zero, hit zero, and then went negative for several hours. As the Lone Star State slumbered, power producers were paying the state’s electricity system to take electricity off their hands. At one point, the negative price was $8.52 per megawatt hour."
.
That is less than 1 cent per kwh.