294k KM on 2006 TDI (BEW)... some lifter damage

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: zeng
OP , go find this VW 505.01 :TOTAL QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W-40

Or this : Castrol EDGE 5W-40



Bad advice. We've seen here time and time again that castrol 5w-40 is an inferior product to their 0w-40. So to use the 5w over the 0w is a bad choice and not one I would use.

Doesn't m1 0w-40 and castrol 0w-40 meet this spec? If so its a no brainer. One of those brands is typically on sale somewhere daily.

Never mind. I just remembered the 505.01 is the diesel spec. Though not certified I wonder how well a 15w-40 or 10w-30 hdeo would work in this application.
Or is this a low saps app? If so nevermind. Your stuck using high priced oils.

 

[zeng]

That's right , OP is referring to VW 505.01 specs.

 

[GoStumpy]

They did have the TOTAL QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W-40 and this is what I got

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: GoStumpy
They did have the TOTAL QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W-40 and this is what I got

Hahaha .........

After being exposed sufficiently to Bitog and www on intricacies of oils , I began not to follow

blindly advices/recommendations from :

a )the hands-on mechanics with insufficient solid knowledge;

b )the oil sellers/marketer, and often times ,

c )manufacturer (non-professional) representatives like saleman and servicing crews.

That's in my local context.

 

[riggaz]

Like you say it's a common fault with the VW 8 valve PD engines when they have been run on the incorrect oil.

It's not about endorsements, it's about performance. The PD engines are harder on their oils because the pump injectors run on the cam as well.

505.01 5W-40 is the oil you need, we use Total Ineo MC3 5w-40 in the workshop for fixed interval VW engines that don't require a low saps oils but any of the APPROVED oils will be fine.

 

[SR1919]

Good day:

Originally I thought that the 507 spec was only backward compatible to the 505.01 spec on paper (link) but after some research I could not find any indications that VW Pumpe Duse cams have been damaged by the use of 507 specs oils in Europe (where 507 oils have been in use much longer than in North America). Certainly if somebody has information from on the road use of 507 spec oils damaging PD cams please post here.

I am not advocating any specific oils and I agree also with the use of 5W-40 505.01 and/or heavy duty CJ oils. The 507 specs oils are tested at a higher level regarding wear:

https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html

Also an oil such as the Pennzoil Ultra Euro L is closer to a 40 weight than 30:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054903_20120227110_5.pdf

Price wise the Pennzoil is very competitive compared to various 505.01/HDEO oils in the market (i am not sure in Canada).

Of course you can always head over to TDIclub.com and spent even more hours discussing oils for VW diesel engines


Originally Posted By: Nick1994
It happens to them regardless of what oil you use, but of course the proper oil helps it last longer. It doesn't have to be a 505.01 oil. Plenty of people use Rotella T6 or Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck and have great results.

With the BEW engine do NOT use Mobil 1 0w40. It's not up to the task. It's perfectly fine in the ALH engines though.

Don't use a 507 oil either. They're 5w30 which is too thin.

My TDI has a cam that's going bad, I've had enough of VW. It really put a sour taste in my mouth and it'll be sold soon. Back to drama-free Toyota!

 

[SR1919]

Also a very important not to add for PD cams: if you decide to install a brand new cam (OEM or otherwise, see TDIClub.com for options) it is crucial to do the proper break-in procedure correctly.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[zanzabar]

+1 Go to TDIclub and learn everything you need to know. This is very common, and in my opinion it's mainly a design flaw. Thicker oils help, but are not the only reason for failure. Plenty of lifter failures on 40wt 505.01 oils too, not exclusive to the 30wt versions (but still say away from them!).

However, the 505.01 "requirement" is nonsense. All you need is a good quality heavy 40wt oil. Rotella T6 is fine and it's what I use.

 

[GoStumpy]

I am a member at TDIclub and posted there as well.

Did the oil change today, I've only ever done 5k OCI before, stretching to 8k (KM, which is 5k miles) at the most... This oil is said to be good for 16k km, or 10k miles... Sweet!

 

[SR1919]

Originally Posted By: GoStumpy
I am a member at TDIclub and posted there as well.

Did the oil change today, I've only ever done 5k OCI before, stretching to 8k (KM, which is 5k miles) at the most... This oil is said to be good for 16k km, or 10k miles... Sweet!


Good point to bring up about the 10K miles OCI as my research as shown me that changing the oil earlier than required is not necessarily a good idea or a better return on investment (ROI) due to the timeline chemistry of today's modern synthetic motor oils.

 

[k9jadon]

I did not see anyone suggest Amsoil's "European Car Formula 5W-40 Mid-SAPS Synthetic Motor Oil". It appears to be around 58 for 5L at the "non-preferred" customer price. It also says that it is recommended for vehicles requiring 505.01. Do you need "low" SAPS? or do you want something that is more easily attained? Anyway just a thought.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: k9jadon
I did not see anyone suggest Amsoil's "European Car Formula 5W-40 Mid-SAPS Synthetic Motor Oil". It appears to be around 58 for 5L at the "non-preferred" customer price. It also says that it is recommended for vehicles requiring 505.01. Do you need "low" SAPS? or do you want something that is more easily attained? Anyway just a thought.


Not certified.

Most of us here prefer a product that carries an actual certification,not meets or exceeds.
We have many examples of boutique blenders products that carry the meets or exceeds label but when an analysis is done it doesn't meet the criteria the certification specifies.
And considering most certified products cost less than the boutique brands it doesn't make any sense to pay more for something that may,or may not actually qualify for certification.
I like Amsoil. But I refuse to pay extra for it. I used it exclusively for a decade believing it was the only product able to run 10000 mile intervals. And it did fine. Engines were clean and ran great.
However now I use on sale syns and my engines are clean and run great. With the same 10000 mile interval.

 

[SR1919]

Ok let's also remember that 'technically speaking' CJ oils are not certified for TDI PD engines either but that does not mean they will not work well in said engines.

For smaller companies such as Amsoil, Redline, Schaeffer, etc. look at their spec sheets too and the UOA databases around the net (in my view).

 

[Brons2]

Some on TDIClub have speculated that CJ-4 synthetics such as M1 TDT work better than the 505.01 in PD engines...

 

[riggaz]

You need a 5w-40 VW505.01

I wouldn't be too anal about the approved vs meets argument, as long as the oil company is a good one then you'll be fine.

When it comes to modern motor oils the additive companies design the formulation that have the approvals so while it may not be on the approval list it may have the same add pack as a lot that are.

 

[SR1919]

If you follow the history of the PD engines in the US you will read about the Castrol 505.01 certified oil that the VW dealers used around 2004 and afterwards on said engines. There was a lot cam failures as a result with this certified 505.01 oil (do your own research about this story of course).

When it comes to PD engines the HTHS is very important among other factors. You need at least 3.5 but preferably 3.7 or higher (my opinion).

 

[B320i]

I know I'm not exactly knowledgeable or well-versed on Diesel oils, but I'm surprised a suggestion for oil higher in zinc hasn't popped up...

During my own research on Rotella, it was suggested that higher-zinc oils might protect against this type of wear. Would that be the case with the VW, or is this simply just a manufacturing fault that cannot be remedied?

 

[BrocLuno]

Cam and lifter wear is the bugaboo of oils. It's Fe to Fe contact with a very small actual contact surface and pretty high loads. And usually, there is not direct forced lube point directed at the cam/lifter interface... It gets secondary splash oil or some other equivalent. So better oils are a requirement.

This guy was looking into high rates of cam failures (not in VW) and started looking at oils with a Fe to Fe test rig he designed. It is not absolutely equal to real world engine dynamics, but is a way to gage which oils perform best in absolute AW film destructive testing. The sort of thing that may have galled your parts... https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

Take it all with a grain of salt, but look over what he has to say and see if the logic is reasonable for your knowledge base and your beliefs. Yeah, I know it comes off as a bit self serving, but I think he is onto something as far as the oil testing ...

The oil rankings start at about 1/4 of the way down. The diesel engine oils specific tests are further along ...

Remember that he is testing for cam/lifter failures in race cars and that is not what you have.. But you have a smaller version of the same problem ... The bottom line for me (and I have been a proponent of HDEO's for a l-o-n-g time) is that they do not fair as well in absolute lubrication capability as some other oils. Balance that with diesel engine requirements for soot control and fuel dilution, etc.

It seems that maybe your VW diesel is a bit more demanding that say Cuummins over the road diesels ... If that's the case, maybe you need to adjust your lube oil to something a bit better than say Rotella ...

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
It seems that maybe your VW diesel is a bit more demanding that say Cuummins over the road diesels ... If that's the case, maybe you need to adjust your lube oil to something a bit better than say Rotella ...


Rather amusing that you mention Cummins by name, given that there is an engine test (ASTM D7484), which is included in CJ-4, that specifically evaluates camshaft, mushroom-style slider tappet, and crosshead wear.

As for what we're observing here -- OP purchased a damaged engine. Drawing any conclusions is absurd.

 

[riggaz]

On the failures that we've seen in our workshop the camshafts aren't worn badly, if at all, on the lobes where the lifter is in good condition (still see the machining marks on them). The cams were only worn on lobes where the lifter surface had started to crack/pitt which then created an abrasive surface that no oil could save. The really bad lobes were always on the ones where the lifter had collapsed and dished which cracked the surface even worse. You would occasionally see a score on the PD lobe if the wrong oil or longlife oil had been used.