Data Collection for Engine Warm-up experiments '12

[Shannow]

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/vss088_jehlik_2012_p.pdf

Argonne National Laboratory Power Point preso on data gathering for the set-up of a cold temperature testing regime

Interesting preso on a couple of points...
* Has a month by month comparison of fuel consumed for a representative Prius in LA, Washington DC, and Chicago (and we wonder why we get erratic mileage results).
* Economy measurements for first start and subsequent starts for a bunch of ambients (hint, line up your short trips)
*

A couple of charts with dipstick thermocouples, and the alleged "proper" location...one appears a bit more representative of what's happening.
* Chart on steady state in two ambient conditions. Effect greatest during warm-up phase, much smaller at steady state. 35F ambient temperature difference is 35F difference oil temp at start, more like 10-12F at hot equilibrium (looks like a sump temperature I think).

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
(hint, line up your short trips)


Here's something interesting from the archives, older, carbed era where they tried to do similar, just different.

Note the not much difference in the 270-870 second period, but the differences in the 30 to 270, which then impact the 30 to 870 totals.

 

[userfriendly]

Love the happy face on the dipstick thermocouples sentence.
Who would that be for?

People ain't gonna believe the bottom chart.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
People ain't gonna believe the bottom chart.


I know...

What would you run in Florida ?

 

[Sunnyinhollister]

Adding a block heater, even in a mild or warm climate, is very popular over in the Prius forums as a way to increase fuel economy.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Adding a block heater, even in a mild or warm climate, is very popular over in the Prius forums as a way to increase fuel economy.


Definitely would help that first few miles.

Have posted this one before (again, someone else's work)...

Lots of good ideas on getting warm quickly.

Quote:
Andre [8]recorded the use of 58 vehicles in three European countries over a period of 1580 days. The study revealed that 20-22% of the trips recorded were less than 1 km in length, while approximately 50% of trips were less than 3km long.


Would put that 20-22% in the less than 270 second range in the older charts that I posted

 

[JHZR2]

I had posted data on oil temperature and coolant on here before. I need to do so at more varied ambient temperatures.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Adding a block heater, even in a mild or warm climate, is very popular over in the Prius forums as a way to increase fuel economy.


I've said that for a long time, haven't followed through myself though. I do need to.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Adding a block heater, even in a mild or warm climate, is very popular over in the Prius forums as a way to increase fuel economy.


I've said that for a long time, haven't followed through myself though. I do need to.
Use electricity instead of gas?

 

[Brad_C]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Use electricity instead of gas?


Why not? Surely utility generators are more efficient than a cold vehicle motor.
Of course there's got to be a fine line between pumping heat into the environment for no gain and a bit of extra fuel efficiency.

 

[Kawiguy454]

Originally Posted By: Brad_C
Originally Posted By: CT8
Use electricity instead of gas?


Why not? Surely utility generators are more efficient than a cold vehicle motor.
Of course there's got to be a fine line between pumping heat into the environment for no gain and a bit of extra fuel efficiency.


I think the point is if you're going to scientifically calculate equivalent energy consumption and thus cost. you MUST also include the electrical energy used to obtain a better result. if you spend $2 a night to heat the block and it only saves you $1 in gas the next day then it doesn't make sense to do so.

Like so many feel good green ideas the economics don't pan out ...I'd bet this is one of them. $.02

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Adding a block heater, even in a mild or warm climate, is very popular over in the Prius forums as a way to increase fuel economy.


Definitely would help that first few miles.

Have posted this one before (again, someone else's work)...

Lots of good ideas on getting warm quickly.

Quote:
Andre [8]recorded the use of 58 vehicles in three European countries over a period of 1580 days. The study revealed that 20-22% of the trips recorded were less than 1 km in length, while approximately 50% of trips were less than 3km long.


Would put that 20-22% in the less than 270 second range in the older charts that I posted


the roads are very congested here... the first km takes me at least 5 minutes, likely 10... average speeds are about 15 to 25 km/h if you have any urban driving to do.

 

[Jetronic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBUejE0nOiU

this is kinda spot on...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
Originally Posted By: Brad_C
Originally Posted By: CT8
Use electricity instead of gas?


Why not? Surely utility generators are more efficient than a cold vehicle motor.
Of course there's got to be a fine line between pumping heat into the environment for no gain and a bit of extra fuel efficiency.


I think the point is if you're going to scientifically calculate equivalent energy consumption and thus cost. you MUST also include the electrical energy used to obtain a better result. if you spend $2 a night to heat the block and it only saves you $1 in gas the next day then it doesn't make sense to do so.

Like so many feel good green ideas the economics don't pan out ...I'd bet this is one of them. $.02


Average US heat rate for the coalers is about 11 MJ/KWHr, which reverses to close to 33% efficiency.

What that DOES mean is that every KWHr that you use has burned about 1lb of coal.

So yes, a block heater while saving a user some petrol, may not be the truly "green" alternative.

Overall green is probably holding gears such that cold revs are 2,500-3,000.

 

[userfriendly]

Overall green is walking a kilometer or two.

What would I do if I lived in Florida besides buying a hand gun?

Engine oil wise, no different than what I do during Canuck summers eh?

Pick a number between 3.5 and 4.4, throw out W and KV100, shine my truck up
and go looking for a wealthy Jewish widow sugar-momma.

 

[Colt45ws]

According to this it might be better to stick an oil pan heater on the vehicle, rather than a block heater; though both would help.
I don't believe you'd have to run it all night either. I bet it reaches full temperature in 2-3 hours. You could put a heavy duty timer on it and time it out. Looks like 150-250 watts is enough for most engines. Worst case maybe a whole kW/Hr to warm the oil pan and bottom end of the engine.
If you can get out of that 30-270 zone you'd be way ahead of the cost of a kW/Hr.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
Overall green is walking a kilometer or two.

What would I do if I lived in Florida besides buying a hand gun?

Engine oil wise, no different than what I do during Canuck summers eh?

Pick a number between 3.5 and 4.4, throw out W and KV100, shine my truck up
and go looking for a wealthy Jewish widow sugar-momma.



Ha.
Awsome

 

[Surestick]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
According to this it might be better to stick an oil pan heater on the vehicle, rather than a block heater; though both would help.
I don't believe you'd have to run it all night either. I bet it reaches full temperature in 2-3 hours. You could put a heavy duty timer on it and time it out. Looks like 150-250 watts is enough for most engines. Worst case maybe a whole kW/Hr to warm the oil pan and bottom end of the engine.
If you can get out of that 30-270 zone you'd be way ahead of the cost of a kW/Hr.


I think with most vehicles having a an oil-to-coolant heat exchanger the difference between an oil pan heater & block heater would come down to which of the two systems had the most thermal mass.
If I had to guess I'd say one of those circulating block heaters that make sure the majority of the coolant in the block is heated would yield the best results.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Adding a block heater, even in a mild or warm climate, is very popular over in the Prius forums as a way to increase fuel economy.


I've said that for a long time, haven't followed through myself though. I do need to.
Use electricity instead of gas?


Use electric which is 33% efficient at a centralized plant where the emissions are controlled and scrubbed, so I can get into a warmer car that pollutes less and gets to lube and water temperatures faster? Sure. As opposed to a lightly loaded engine spewing fuel in an open loop controls configuration.

Suffering through and letting the engine self heat under light loads is my mo. But some people still waste tons of fuel and wear and tear by idling their cars to warm up. I'd rather they plug in then idle.