Is salt on the roads really necessary ?

[Merkava_4]

Watching this video on youtube showing a Chevy S-10 severely rusted out, I question the need for salt. You buy a new car over in upstate New York and within 10 years the car is totally gutted out. I don't see why you people over there even bother buying new cars. Over here in California, my car is 15 years old and I'd have to look real hard to find a spec of rust on it. Must be nice you say? Yes it's nice.

 

[dishdude]

I didn't watch all 55 mins but skipping through if you think that is severely rusted out, I'd have to guess you never left CA.

Yes salt is necessary if people plan to travel on roads during the winter months in the NE, otherwise it's like trying to drive on a skating rink.

 

[CharBaby]

I wish we didn't use salt! In my area of NY State, we get as much OR more snowfall than anywhere in the country according to the U.S. Weather Service. Oswego, NY may in fact get the most!

 

[OneEyeJack]

You list yourself as California. If you're anywhere near Escondido you should contact MJM.

MJM Engines
Escondido, CA


Lots of people around here use them. They have all the modern equipment tools and they do a good job. They have a good warranty, too. And they will do custom additions and modifications at reasonable prices. If they do the R&R you can exchange accessories for new or rebuilt replacements like starters and other components they remove for no additional labor. It's a chance to update the stuff under the hood at the cost of the parts.

They rebuild a friend's 4x4 tree trimming boom truck's engine and tranny about 20 years ago and today it's still running with only regular maintenance. When they did the R&R they correctly replaced all the splash panels, beating several back into shape and used all new bolts and washers at no additional cost. They said it was part of doing the job right. If the manufacture installed splash panels they said they should be put back correctly. By the way, they cleaned them up and repainted them, too. A job well done by someone that cared about their work.

 

[joegreen]

You are lucky to be in ca. They put so much salt on the roads here that it looks like they are painted white. you can taste the Salt dust in the air and on dry days vehicles tires make small salt dust clouds when they drive.

 

[Turk]

I'm in Minne-salt-ota. Don't even get me going on that darn salt.

NO. We don't need it. It's only for drivers that don't possess the skills to drive in the Winter.

Oh, wait, with the onslaught of making everything skill-less, like back-up cameras, sensors, PLUS looking down at their little addiction, their Phones, etc. people have lost their skills & minds, so, yea, I guess we're stuck with salt.

 

[Lapham3]

Around here in recent years the main roads often are pretreated before a storm by a vegetable based brine. During the storm and after the salt and salt brind mix then suposedly is more effective. Some rural counties with coal power plants have experimented with spreading clinkers and other rural areas just use sand alone. Unfortunately, the effectiveness and cheaper cost of salt, still has it as the major 'tool'. The highway folks aren't much concerned with our cars, but they are with the bridges as they are definately affected.

 

[zach1900]

I've seen 3rd 4th 5th 6th generation Toyota Camries Lexus ect.in upstate NY with little to no rust, 10 years and an s10 rusted out in upstate NY, you're acting like it was in a year.I've seen 5 year old rusted out GM trucks in Tennessee, go figure .

 

[NHGUY]

Come to NH and see the rust.Underbody rot is common within 5 years,and trucks die due to broken frames.Patch panels are a big seller,as are spring shackles and hangers.

 

[eljefino]

When you get snowbanks you get freeze/thaw cycles and a little water on the shoulder that could sneak back into travel lanes. This causes "black ice" for the morning commute. There's also a ton of traffic and sun in peoples' eyes, so you can't really wag your finger and say drive safer.

The sheen of salt on the roads is a near necessity for all the thaw/ refreeze cycles. Though I wonder how they'd get by if they used half as much.

Cars could be better designed. I had a 21 year old volvo with an original, local dealer name rivetted on the back that did fine in 21 Maine winters. It had decent quality metal in the chassis and (original) brake lines, and few "voids" to trap salt. Look at the bottom of a rear fender liner where it meets the rocker panel on most cars, and you'll find a little nook full of sand and dirt. This traps briny water. Body-on-frame trucks are bad because they have more nooks, and the frames aren't often super duper rust-proofed, galvanized dipped or whatever.

 

[ronbo]

We have rust proofing companies in Western New York like Carwell and Krown. A smart yearly investment if you have a new vehicle. A friend has a yearly lock in rate of $79 yearly for his 2004 Toyota Tundra.

When I spent 11 days driving in California in the mid 80's from San Diego to SF and back, what surprised me was the "lack" of older vehicles on the road. The age of the vehicles was the same as in New York.

Dec1 to end of March I have an unlimited car wash plan ($25 a month) that includes an under spray wash. I get about 15 washes a month but could get it daily if I wished.

 

[KD0AXS]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
When you get snowbanks you get freeze/thaw cycles and a little water on the shoulder that could sneak back into travel lanes. This causes "black ice" for the morning commute.


That's not black ice. Black ice is caused when temps are well below zero and the water vapor in exhaust from vehicles freezes on the pavement. This type of ice is essentially invisible, it appears to be dry pavement. That's where the term "black ice" came from. When it's that cold, salt is useless. At those temps, it's too cols for the salt to melt the ice.

 

[Kuato]

Friend of mine works for the WV Dept of Highways. There is a nonsalt alternative that works just as well, doesn't corrode cars, and is not harmful to the environment. It is, however, 3x more expensive than salt. But their study also showed that the cumulative damages from salt cost almost twice as much as the other stuff, when you add up damage to vehicles, environment, etc.

Your government at work. Personally, I'd be happy to pay double to register my vehicle in order to not have it rust.

 

[Andy636]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Watching this video on youtube showing a Chevy S-10 severely rusted out, I question the need for salt. You buy a new car over in upstate New York and within 10 years the car is totally gutted out. I don't see why you people over there even bother buying new cars. Over here in California, my car is 15 years old and I'd have to look real hard to find a spec of rust on it. Must be nice you say? Yes it's nice.

The answer is NO, you can use Calcium Chloride that works even better than salt and that is 80 times less corrosive than salt and sand, and that can be used even at -42C.

Calcium chloride is used extensively over here in the cities instead of salt and all the cars look like giants sugar powdered muffins after a week.

The only problem is that is more expensive than salt and sand so your Gov would rather let the taxpayer pay out of it's own pocket for repairs and maybe a new car every few years instead of spending a bit more money on the CaCl2 for the common good.

 

[Falken]

Great topic!

Last Winter, in Montreal, the Municipalities "experimented" with cheaping out on the salt, and combined with poorly co-ordinated snow removal efforts etc, here is what happened:

All the roads developed 1" thick ice "scale" EVERYWHERE. Made the roads rough and slippery in spots where you couldn't stop, then it would grab.

People slid through stop signs, and the ice never got "reset" during sunny days.

Salt helps break up the ice, it seems pretty vital in Montreal with our horrible Winters.

It was bad enough I was considering getting studs for my next set of Winter tires.

We will see what happens this Winter. I just hope it isn't as cold. Snow is one thing, but -30C is no fun at all.

 

[Klutch9]

The funny thing is that near Detroit, where I live, we get a ton of salt dropped every winter. On the west side of the state and in the UP, where they get REAL snow, including lake-effect, they rarely, if ever use salt. Just sand and lots of plowing. And it works, because their roads are always passable despite the massive amounts of snow they get. I do realize that the Detroit area is much more densely populated and has many more roads, but it does mean that my cars will rot themselves out in short order.

 

[Traction]

If winter tires were mandatory in the northern states, they sure could use a lot less salt. Instead of the government spending all that money on salt that destroysmore than just cars. Look what it does to bridges, etc. The money they save could be used as a subsidy for winter tires for everyone, and money left over for better driving education. Yeah, I know I'm dreaming.

 

[Bamaro]

Its necessary but unfortunately severely overused because politicians are afraid of public backlash if roads aren't what many people consider clean enough.

 

[Andrew1972]

Our state (NH) thrives on out of states spending money(tourism, alchohol, cigs, meals/lodging taxes) and having cruddy roads will reduce coffers.

If you have a vehicle you want to keep long term you tend not to drive it when roads are not salty.

I grew up in New England and part of my thinking in vehicles is they last 12-15 years based on mileage and age due to conditions. They are consumable goods you throw away hence my thinking that spending more then $25k for transport in my mind for a throwaway is stupid.

 

[cat843]

A lot of sand is also used in the northeast. Many times its a sand/salt mix. If it gets really cold, then the salt does not lower the melting point enough and the ice remains frozen and the only thing they can do is sand on top of the ice.

For the bulk of drivers, getting salt on their vehicles is not an issue. They will trade them in before any rust shows. But for people who keep vehicles for awhile they will need to get them treated with Krown or CarWell or FF if they want them to be near rust free at 10 yrs.