2016 Kia Turbo 20W50

[Greasymechtech]

Its OK java... we're just picking on you. Its hard to believe that with CAFE, any automaker would recommend a 20w50.

You are in OHIO and do not need that thick of an oil.

Page 8-8 of the 2016 Sorento owners manual...
20w50 (but no 10w50, 15w50, 5w50)...
15w40 (but no 10w40)
10w30
5w30, 5w40 (but no 0w40)

Its good to see a 40 and 50 grade mentioned in an owners manual.

For better fuel economy, use a 5w30... hahahahaha not saying "best"

I probably wouldn't use 20w50, unless you mod the engine for more HP.

I'll stick with my 0w40(Mobil1, Pennzoil, Castrol) are easy enough to find at local autopart and department stores.

5w40 is also an excellent choice. Mobil1, Castrol, Pennzoil, Delo, Rotella,....can be found.

You can also use any of the mail order boutique fluids...Amsoil, RoyalPurple, Neo, Torco, Synmax, Redline, .....

With the failures of these turbo2.0's, turbo1.6's, nonturbo2.4's, I'd probably avoid 5w30, 10w30.

And, your oil change interval is 3mo/3k for severe service, or 6month/5k for unheard of non-severe service. Remember to check and top off oil at EVERY fillup. Keep it full always. And, I would always stick with a synthetic oil.

Enjoy the vehicle.

BTW, Castrol/Mobil1... make a good 5w50/15w50/10w40... I would not fear any non-mentioned grades. They overlap easily with Kia's limited selection.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
The lubricants business, especially in the US, is a producer driven industry run primarily for the benefit of the OEMs,the base oil producing oil companies, the AddCo's, the Government (CAFE) and the test houses...not the person that actual buys the oil. I find it deeply ironic that in The Land Of The Free, you have an industry that could quite happily be at home in the old Soviet Union...

(pulls pin...throws grenade...waits for the explosion...)


By no means have I done exhaustive analysis on this issue BUT the vast majority of American and Japanese engines in the US have reached hundreds of thousands of miles on xw20 and xw30 oils.

And Consumer Reports magazine recently reported on which engines are consuming oil and they are predominantly BMW and Audis.

(http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consumption/index.htm)

I bring up this not to reopen a debate about brands that consume oil, but to point out there hasn't been a problem with cheaper, lighter oils and that the consumer benefits through savings in fuel and oil cost. That's simply the market here.

BUT, in the quest for fuel economy, the engines in North America are becoming more sophisticated and more like the engines Europeans get in most of their vehicles. So while the vast majority of oil currently available is not going to be suitable for these new engines, it is not the same thing as saying we have inappropriate oil for our market.

The oil market will eventually reflect the new requirements. But consumers have to demand the right products for them to be supplied. We only just started having 5 quart jugs of M1 0w40 and also Castrol 0w40 in the last couple of years in Walmart. Prior to that Euro oil was relatively expensive and harder to source.

But the lack of such high quality oil had zero impact on all those driving American and Japanese vehicles.

 

[Shannow]

Bonito, I agree with you largely.

What the manufacturer's have at their disposal are statisticians who can identify typical usage patterns, and make recommendations based on them.

This is from a Honda paper, showing how their analysis on engine load and speed typically maps.

Different usage patters, oci, different recommendation.

Ford have a different recommendation for the same base engine in the Us operated at different points on the above map.

Doesn't make the thin, fuel efficient oils wrong in their market.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: java
I posted earlier seeking confirmation that M1 5W30 is a good choice for this 2.0T TGDI.
Run M1 0w-30 in the winter, and M1 0w-40 in the summer. Problems solved.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Its OK java... we're just picking on you. Its hard to believe that with CAFE, any automaker would recommend a 20w50.

You are in OHIO and do not need that thick of an oil.

Page 8-8 of the 2016 Sorento owners manual...
20w50 (but no 10w50, 15w50, 5w50)...
15w40 (but no 10w40)
10w30
5w30, 5w40 (but no 0w40)


For better fuel economy, use a 5w30... hahahahaha not saying "best"

...With the failures of these turbo2.0's, turbo1.6's, nonturbo2.4's, I'd probably avoid 5w30, 10w30.


Yet, all throughout the USA that very same 5W-30, God forbid in conventional GrpII form, is what's being used at dealerships without issue. Not saying the other acceptable choices should not be used, heck I've used 0W40 once and was tempted to go with 15W-40 this time because of old stash from a previous vehicle. But regardless of the internet noise concerning issues with the 2.0T, 1.6T or 2.4, i decided to stick with the recommended XW-30. Especially while using the severe service schedule.

 

[Greasymechtech]

 

[wemay]

Thank you! That's exactly what my Sonata's OM looks like. My 2.0T Santa Fe OM only lists 5W-30 and 10W-30...go figure. Same 2.0T as seen in the Sonata, Sorrento and Optima (theta II 2.0T).

 

[Joe90_guy]

Like you, I haven't done an exhaustive analysis of the VOA & UOA sections of BITOG but what I think I've observed is this...

This is an 'enthusiast' site where the virtues of 'good' oil are revered. You even go to the trouble & expense of getting your oils analysed. M1 & Redline are praised to the skies which is only right and proper because the reality is that these are aircraft lubricants that just happen to fly at ground level. That a PAO/Ester based oil should work well anywhere in the world should not be a surprise to anyone. However this performance comes at a high price. I've no idea what percentage of the overall US PCMO market, PAO/Ester oils take but I would probably put it at less that 5%. If anyone knows better, please shout.

As well as PAO/Ester oils, I also read a lot about full synthetics (eg Rotella T-6 and the like). The Group III (part Group IV?) oils, whilst possibly not as good a the PAO/Ester oils, are all still very good oils, quite capable of doing 10k+ or even 15k+ oil drains. I look at the UOA section and see a lot of these. I cry big tears when I see folks dumping them at 5k miles because it's such a waste of good oil! In recent years the pricing gap between Group III (pseudo-synthetic, hydro-cracked) base oils and Group II (hydro-treated mineral) base oils has narrowed. This has become even more so since the price of crude oil cratered. This has made full synthetics even more affordable to the bloke in the street. However I would still guess that full synthetics take maybe 15% max of the US PCMO market. I base this number more on the fact that Group III base oil production capacity is still severely limited; especially in the US.

Which brings me to what you guys call 'Dino Oil'. Typically 5W30 all Group II. Definitely not something for the enthusiast but beloved by drug dealers and trailer trash because it's unbelievably cheap. In recent years the US oil companies have invested big time in Group II base oil production capacity primarily because it's actually cheaper to produce that Group I. This is very clever because Group II in some aspects of it's performance can be way better than Group I. However in others it can be the same or worse. Given it that US base oil production is so heavily weighted towards Group II, I'd guess that it accounts for 80%+ of US PCMO. Again, anyone that know the actual figures, please feel free to correct me.

Now here's the thing. As far as I know, the US is the only country in the world that's making 5W30 oils from what are essentially glorified mineral oils. It's even worse when you realise that these are 'sloppy' 5W30's with lower than necessary CCS's such that they are half way to being 0W30 oils! If you look at the PQI tables, it's clear that this stuff is, in comparative terms very volatile and are only just on the right side of the 15% max Noack spec.

Now are these oils acceptable or not? I honestly don't know. You say yes. The fact that there's been no huge outcry from US consumers would suggest the answer is yes. But is the answer definitively yes? I'm not so sure. I suspect that these oils have the capacity to create engine problems over the long term. Just remember that the tests in the API sequences are all single pass tests that effectively replicate just one oil drain. Furthermore, whilst many of the API test parameters are set very severe, some seem to have been set low to 'allow' these oils to struggle through. Whatever the rights or wrongs of this argument are, or what the answers are, I'd say this is a topic worthy of debate on BITOG.

PS - the 'the lubricant industry is a conspiracy between the OEMS, oil companies & AddCo's against the common man' thing isn't new and isn't my invention. I heard it first over 25 years ago from a old lubes guy called Eric Lewis. Eric died a long time ago but back then he was the guy who had been here and done everything and had GTX running through his veins. When I first heard it I was still a 'fuelie' and didn't quite understand what he was saying. Funny that is would stick in my mind all these years...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
As well as PAO/Ester oils, I also read a lot about full synthetics (eg Rotella T-6 and the like). The Group III (part Group IV?) oils, whilst possibly not as good a the PAO/Ester oils, are all still very good oils, quite capable of doing 10k+ or even 15k+ oil drains.

Incidentally, the Rotella synthetic is part of this group, with primarily Group III and a bit of Group IV.

The chart picture is better than a few I've seen, but I'd love to see an A5 5w-20.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy


This is an 'enthusiast' site where the virtues of 'good' oil are revered.

Which brings me to what you guys call 'Dino Oil'. Typically 5W30 all Group II. Definitely not something for the enthusiast but beloved by drug dealers and trailer trash because it's unbelievably cheap. In recent years the US oil companies have invested big time in Group II base oil production capacity primarily because it's actually cheaper to produce that Group I. This is very clever because Group II in some aspects of it's performance can be way better than Group I. However in others it can be the same or worse. Given it that US base oil production is so heavily weighted towards Group II, I'd guess that it accounts for 80%+ of US PCMO. Again, anyone that know the actual figures, please feel free to correct me.



Quite a few enthusiasts on Bitog that use and 'revere' Group II (dino).

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Different usage patters, oci, different recommendation.

Ford have a different recommendation for the same base engine in the Us operated at different points on the above map.

Doesn't make the thin, fuel efficient oils wrong in their market.

What I don't understand is the animosity from some towards using recommendations from other areas. And that goes both ways. Someone who drives like grandma with very expensive gasoline may want to use US CAFE recommendations instead of the recommended xw-40/50s their manual specs.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: hatt
What I don't understand is the animosity towards using recommendations from other areas.


It seems really to be a manhood thing...

 

[Swift101]

IMHO M1 or Castrol 0W-40 is the best choice for these engines. Not to mention you can find both of them at Walmart, if one isn't on sale the other probably is.

As others have mentioned they meet the stringent European specs, nothing to worry about using them in our engines.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Now here's the thing. As far as I know, the US is the only country in the world that's making 5W30 oils from what are essentially glorified mineral oils. It's even worse when you realise that these are 'sloppy' 5W30's with lower than necessary CCS's such that they are half way to being 0W30 oils! If you look at the PQI tables, it's clear that this stuff is, in comparative terms very volatile and are only just on the right side of the 15% max Noack spec.

Now are these oils acceptable or not? I honestly don't know. You say yes. The fact that there's been no huge outcry from US consumers would suggest the answer is yes. But is the answer definitively yes? I'm not so sure. I suspect that these oils have the capacity to create engine problems over the long term. Just remember that the tests in the API sequences are all single pass tests that effectively replicate just one oil drain. Furthermore, whilst many of the API test parameters are set very severe, some seem to have been set low to 'allow' these oils to struggle through. Whatever the rights or wrongs of this argument are, or what the answers are, I'd say this is a topic worthy of debate on BITOG.


It's absolutely great to have this debate.

Some of my thoughts in no particular order:

- everyday US and Japanese engines are mostly easy on oil compared to everyday European ones. If you think of all sorts of countries in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, South America where you find Toyota's in abundance, who knows what quality of oil is used there yet they run and run and run. Apparently, this is part of the design of Toyota engines - to be reliable with virtually any oil because of the markets they sold their vehicles to while they were growing.

Even now, the Lexus ISF which I suppose has an engine similar in performance to an M3, can use conventional 5w30 while the M3 needs a full syn 10w60.

- In light of your comments suggesting PAO is superior, I find it interesting that Mobil 1 0w40 has gone from being Grp III to PAO. It has been suggested that Grp III oils do not maintain their extreme cold start performance over the course of an oci and maybe this is the reason for the switch back to PAO. Interestingly, I've not heard of any issues with non Euro oils losing their cold start performance. Again for me this points to non Euro engines being easier on oil.

- You've mentioned a few UOA's that under utilize oil. You should look a dnewton's use of Walmart dino for 15k oil changes.

- full syn oil is very cheap here. $20-$25 for 5 quarts all the time. $1 a quart or less with a little bit of work.

- I personally go with full synthetic even though many would say I don't need to. As mentioned it's cheap, it let's me more safely extend oil changes, and if it is better technology, it presumably protects and cleans that little bit more. Having said that, I just installed Castrol synblend because I picked it up cheap and if anything it feels better then the full syn I had in before.

 

[wemay]

Excellent post Benito.

 

[Benito]

Thanks wemay.

I thought it would be interesting to look at NOACK. Certainly, the MB229.5 standard says NOACK should be less than 10%, but ACEA 2012 is 13% across the board.

These dino API 5w30's are not far from that:

http://www.pqiamerica.com/testresultssep2011.html

 

[BRZED]

Originally Posted By: Benito
I find it interesting that Mobil 1 0w40 has gone from being Grp III to PAO.


When was M1 0W-40 made from hydrocracked mineral oil?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BRZED
Originally Posted By: Benito
I find it interesting that Mobil 1 0w40 has gone from being Grp III to PAO.


When was M1 0W-40 made from hydrocracked mineral oil?


It had a large portion of its PAO swapped out for VISOM a few years back but more recently has gone back to being a majority PAO lube again.

 

[alcyon]

I have nothing but bad experiences with 20w50 dino sj/sl oil. There are better Amsoil 20w50 as well as redlines but those are far too expensive. I always buy M1 0w40 or SHU 5w40 or castrol edge 5w40 on sale..which is substantially cheaper than those quality 20w50 boutique oils. My engine is really clean on these grp3 syns and i am pretty sure the pistons are too. I never had problems cranking the car after a rebuild 11 years ago. Compared to the 20w50 dino after just 4 years..cranking takes 5 to 7 seconds before start up. Also because of that battery life was about a year only. I surmise the difficult cranking is cause by pistons skirts sticking to the cylinder walls caused by premature oil oxidation. Asking for 5000km per oci on these oils isnt supposed to be asking too much from it..but experience proves otherwise. Heck i have seen friends with the same car who keep using SH hx3 20w50 who religiously switch out at 5000km ..their valves are loaded with varnish. I bet you if they extemd to 7000km it will be loaded with sludge.
so from my experience..i got no love for 20w50 dino.

 

[Benito]

^ I agree with you. I've seen sludge on vehicles outside of North America after a steady diet of mineral 15w40. It seems to be the low cost and therefore higher margin option that garages foist on customers who don't know better.