help - newb mechanic brake issues 87 dodge caravan

[columnshift]

Hello, I posted a little earlier on the brake drum being stuck, now i'm going thru the rebuilding process and running into trouble.

First up it's a 1987 Dodge Caravan (normal length, not a grand), 2.6 mitsubishi 4cyl if it matters, 14 inch wheels if it matters. About 135k miles and spent most of it's life garaged. But then sat a few years cuz I didn't need another vehicle. (inherited this when my mom died and didn't want to just get rid of it)

As I go through the brake system i'm sure the topics will totally change. I posted on the stuck brake drum and overcame that mostly with 6 days of banging and using PB Blaster it finally loosened up and came off. Now i'm seeing I could have a number of other little things to deal with and i'm trying real hard to get this running by monday because I need to get to medical appointments tuesday with it. >_< (my main car unexpectedly offlined)


The two quirks I ran into is first there is an extra U-shaped piece of metal in the hardware kit that never existed originally on the brake drum. I'm pretty sure I know where it goes (the parking brake hardware has a pivot that seems the lever is likely to slide off) but since it's not even in the Haynes manual I don't know the orientation thats appropriate.


The second quirk is that I disassembled the entire brake on the rear left, and the brake cylinder looked perfectly fine with no leaks. THE MOMENT I get everything back on it starts leaking like a sieve! The rubber is still rubbery, it doesnt seem dried out and crusty or anything even though it could still be orig from the factory equip. It just started leaking out of the blue on one side.

I dont know if a) I damaged it somehow, b) pushing and fighting with brake hardware overextended it in one direction, c) do I need to replace it? Pushing on one side of it I feel the piston move in there/maybe it came out too far past some limit and started leaking, but I dont know if that means broke/now replace, or if its fine once pushed back. I got a replacement cylinder I can put in anyway i'm just afraid of repeating whatever I did the first time and damaging a second one otherwise because i'm new to messing about with brake drums.


Btw is there a way to post pictures easily on here? I dont have any photo sites or anything such but it'd be easier if I could show pics.

 

[901Memphis]

I upload my pictures to tinypic.com and they will give you a clickable link to copy and paste to share

 

[eljefino]

Is the u-shaped thing the size of a fingernail? Those crimp around a long "rivetty-thing" that usually connect the parking brake levery-thing to one of the shoes. It's possible your hardware kit covers another app that has the same basic design save for that shoe.

 

[Trav]

The metal piece could be the park brake strut, it also has a spring on one end. You pushed the piston too far out and it leaked, its better to just replace it.
If you can wait till tomorrow AM i have all the pictures you need.

Eljefino is probaby right, if its real small it id holding the parking brake lever pin.

 

[columnshift]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Is the u-shaped thing the size of a fingernail? Those crimp around a long "rivetty-thing" that usually connect the parking brake levery-thing to one of the shoes. It's possible your hardware kit covers another app that has the same basic design save for that shoe.


Yep the size of a fingernail. And yes it fit around a rivet maybe 4mm diameter which is a lever point for the parking brake hardware. I'm just wondering why that U-piece wasnt mentioned in the haynes manual and wasnt on from the factory - it seems necessary. It wasnt on either side and i'm pretty sure the rear brakes were never touched.


New microbit of info - on the 'brand new leak' side of the brake cylinder I was able to push the leaky side of the piston notably inwards with my finger. (I didnt try the other side of that cylinder) When I disassembled the brakes on the right and tried the same thing it's rock hard/doesnt budge. (I dont know if this means the right is seized or neither of them would budge since its pushing back against the master cylinder)


Anomaly three - because of the leak I checked the master cylinder... and it was WAAAAY down on fluid. Far more in the front compartment than the back. (I dont know if the front = front brakes or if it's reversed, i've never checked front brakes on this van yet fwiw, was going to do that after I fixed the obviously seized wheel first.) I added at least 8 ounces to bring it up to spec. It wasnt dry, but I could see the higher sides of the several-vertical-stepped front partition on the bottom - hoping air didnt get in there I mean as there was still some. But if it didnt all go out the wheel cylinder i'll be looking for leaks afterwards.

 

[columnshift]

Originally Posted By: Trav
The metal piece is the park brake strut, it also has a spring on one end. You pushed the piston too far out and it leaked, its better to just replace it.
If you can wait till tomorrow AM i have all the pictures you need.


No no, its not the park brake strut. That part I can identify from the haynes manual I have. But they didnt label 100% of the pieces and some of the other parking brake hardware is a bit clumsily explained.

How did I push the piston out if I didn't to my awareness touch the piston until it went back together? I mean I thought I could only push in/I wouldnt have pulled out in any motion i'm aware, I didn't touch the brake pedal... Or could it have gotten loose without the brake hardware being on for 24 hours? (I took off all pieces yesterday but couldn't complete the job so it sat overnight)

Is there any advice on special handling for it, i'm so focused on fighting with the springs and other little parts i guess i'm not aware what forces might be acting on the cylinder.

I can wait until AM if I have to - I just hit the backside with PB blaster again on both drums in the hopes I can mess with it in the morning. (assuming I dont discover a nightmare in the front brakes which worked fine when it was last parked) I THINK I can do the job the rest of the way I mean I just dont know why my cylinder leaked or what the U-piece was for sure or if it's orientation mattered. I had the brakes totally back together until then.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Always replace wheel cylinders when doing a drum brake job. They're sensitive little buggers.

 

[zrxkawboy]

More than likely, you moved the cups to a part of the cylinder where they didn't normally ride (hadn't for years, anyway), and that part of the cylinder may have been rusty or corroded. In any case, you should just replace both wheel cylinders to avoid more problems.

Normally, the front compartment of the MC supplies the rear brakes and vice-versa.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: columnshift
pushing and fighting with brake hardware


That's your whole problem right there. You're fighting with the brake hardware because you don't have the correct brake drum tools. No sense in making it harder for yourself if you're doing the work yourself. The money saved from doing your own work is plenty enough to buy the correct tools.

 

[michaelluscher]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: columnshift
pushing and fighting with brake hardware


That's your whole problem right there. You're fighting with the brake hardware because you don't have the correct brake drum tools. No sense in making it harder for yourself if you're doing the work yourself. The money saved from doing your own work is plenty enough to buy the correct tools.


+1

Harbor Freight has made it so there's really no excuse not to have the proper(ish) tools for the job

http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/brakes/7-piece-brake-tool-set-188.html

 

[Trav]

Here are some pictures of how the brake goes together.
Clean the adjusters and use a little light grease on the threads, do not mix up the left and right sides.
Make sure you put the shorter shoe to the front and lube all contact points on the backing plate and cable slide.

 

[Merkava_4]

I use these two tools for the drum brakes:

BT11

S6118A

Brake Spring Tools

I use the BT11 for the return springs and the S6118A for the hold down springs. The S6118A has two sizes and it's intended to be used with a 1/4 drive spin handle. Having these two tools MAKES LIFE WAY EASIER!

 

[columnshift]

Quick note to everyone - thank you very much for all the fast and good advice (especially those pictures/better than the haynes manual!) and yes I picked up proper brake tools, but i'm having to take a time out from the repair for medical reasons - after a few more hours of fumbling frustration with rusty stuff i'm realizing this is more than i'm up for completing at this moment. I'm going to have to complete my couple weeks medical treatment cycle and then try to resume where I left off.

I'll follow up in a few weeks, get as far as I can (possibly with brake drums on) and then post again if I encounter trouble with the fronts.

 

[meep]

Good Luck Columnshift

 

[columnshift]

Okay, i'm back, and have up to a week before I have to go out of town for a job for a few weeks.. and the first thing I managed to do was completely snap off the old rusted brake line like a twig while trying to undo it from the rear left brake cylinder.

I sprayed it with penetrating oil all back there for two days before I left (weeks ago) and three times (with 24hrs in between) before I even started on it... used a flare nut wrench... and the connection to the brake cylinder moved fine, but it was stuck to the brake line making the whole line rotate. Attempts to free it just had it physically twist the metal brake line around 180 degrees within an inch or two of metal until it snapped before I realized what it was doing. >_
So now i'm going to need at least one new brake line as well... (possibly both sides if it was rusty enough to go..? suggested?) which ALSO makes me wonder whether I need to look at new brake hoses. (I know those couldn't have been changed in at least 10 years because this van has sat alot of time the last ten years when the original owner became too disabled to drive it and had nobody to check maintenance and stuff. Possibly even longer (or much longer) than that as I have no record when it might have been done. (but he was a mechanic doing his own work 15 years ago so i'm assuming he would have inspected and done it at that time if necessary)

On the positive side this van spent most of it's life both early life including most of the time parked in the garage, only outside the last 4 years or so/no room. It's amazingly rust free for a northern vehicle above the wheelline, just things icky on the lower parts of the underside.


FYI the dodge caravan is maybe a little different than other vehicles, it uses a flexible rubber-seeming hose down to the rear axle, and then a solid metal line goes from the axle to the brake on each side. (I thought normal is the other way around but maybe it's due to using a beam rear axle of some sort.)

So... how do I inspect the rubber upstream hoses/what to look for (I saw nothing obviously wrong/surprisingly so given their alleged age) and do I have to learn about how to bend and flare metal brake lines now or are there chain stores that can do it for me for the 18 inch segments that are rusted out? (one broke the other, well I dont know if i trust it since the other broke)

 

[eljefino]

Yank your old lines and take macro pics.

I had a 92 dakota and recall the rear axle being set up like yours, and it took normal 3/16 double-flare lines which can be bought pre-flared. Buy a little long and put a "wiggle" in where it won't get snagged. While you're shopping, make sure your cylinder bleeder opens as well.

 

[Lubener]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Always replace wheel cylinders when doing a drum brake job. They're sensitive little buggers.


Peel the rubber boot, if its dry, you can leave it alone. Why? because often with older cars, the brake line will refuse to cooperate even after cleaning the joint and applying blaster. A small job often gets bigger very easy on an old car. I do agree it is best to replace the wheel cylinders because they are cheap. I have also rebuilt the cylinder on the vehicle, provided the bore was able to be honed. The reason it probably started leaking was the brakes were adjusted too loose causing the wheel cylinder to extend beyond it normally did in the past. There must have been some rust or a ridge which damaged the rubber cups inside.

 

[Lubener]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: columnshift
pushing and fighting with brake hardware


That's your whole problem right there. You're fighting with the brake hardware because you don't have the correct brake drum tools. No sense in making it harder for yourself if you're doing the work yourself. The money saved from doing your own work is plenty enough to buy the correct tools.


You can do the job with screw driver and a pair of channel lock pliers to handle the hardware.If you can use leverage to your advantage its not a big deal.