Can Renewable Energy meet baseload power

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Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Don't the French have some kind of nuclear power going that greatly reduces the radioactivity of the waste by recycling it through the reactor as add'l fuel? Seems like a good concept.


Fast breed. And yes, the nuclear fuel rods can be recycled and in fact we used to do it up here back when it was cheaper than mining it. However, that changed and so we currently don't recycle the fuel, though the option is there.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Fast breed. And yes, the nuclear fuel rods can be recycled and in fact we used to do it up here back when it was cheaper than mining it. However, that changed and so we currently don't recycle the fuel, though the option is there.

Never see it in the U.S.. Nuke power is dead in the U.S. totally.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Fast breed. And yes, the nuclear fuel rods can be recycled and in fact we used to do it up here back when it was cheaper than mining it. However, that changed and so we currently don't recycle the fuel, though the option is there.

Never see it in the U.S.. Nuke power is dead in the U.S. totally.


For better or worse, I tend to agree. You guys won't buy our reactors and the stigma associated with Nuclear, well, it has already presented itself in this thread so that's pretty much all I need to say about that.
 
More solar power will be integrated into the grid and it will offset fossil fuel use, but unless some miracle battery comes along solar cannot meet all of our needs. There is no grid-scale storage available to carry through sags in wind and solar production let alone night time. The best "battery" we have now is pumped storage. Japan is the largest user of pumped storage and those plants are typically paired with nuclear plants as throttling the output of a nuke plant is really tough. It's also really tough to throttle a large coal plant. Natural gas turbines are much easier to throttle and therefore better accommodate variable sources such as wind and photo-voltaic. Hydro plants are also better able to throttle back, but outside the NW the US doesn't have the concentration of hydro to provide good grid balancing and even here we are at times out of balancing capacity.

As it stands we can use much more solar energy than we have. It takes about 4 years for a solar panel to generate enough power to offset the energy used in the production of an entire solar installation. Solar panels have an expected life of 30 years and most panels guarantee 80% output after 25 years. 87% or more "... of the energy that PV systems generate won’t be plagued by pollution, greenhouse gases, and depletion of resources."

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

For better or worse, I tend to agree. You guys won't buy our reactors and the stigma associated with Nuclear, well, it has already presented itself in this thread so that's pretty much all I need to say about that.

Canada is even worse than the U.S....no nukes being contemplated for 10 years.

The couple reactors being built in the U.S. will never operate.
 
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
More solar power will be integrated into the grid and it will offset fossil fuel use, but unless some miracle battery comes along solar cannot meet all of our needs. There is no grid-scale storage available to carry through sags in wind and solar production let alone night time. The best "battery" we have now is pumped storage. Japan is the largest user of pumped storage and those plants are typically paired with nuclear plants as throttling the output of a nuke plant is really tough. It's also really tough to throttle a large coal plant. Natural gas turbines are much easier to throttle and therefore better accommodate variable sources such as wind and photo-voltaic. Hydro plants are also better able to throttle back, but outside the NW the US doesn't have the concentration of hydro to provide good grid balancing and even here we are at times out of balancing capacity.

As it stands we can use much more solar energy than we have. It takes about 4 years for a solar panel to generate enough power to offset the energy used in the production of an entire solar installation. Solar panels have an expected life of 30 years and most panels guarantee 80% output after 25 years. 87% or more "... of the energy that PV systems generate won’t be plagued by pollution, greenhouse gases, and depletion of resources."

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

+1
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

For better or worse, I tend to agree. You guys won't buy our reactors and the stigma associated with Nuclear, well, it has already presented itself in this thread so that's pretty much all I need to say about that.

Canada is even worse than the U.S....no nukes being contemplated for 10 years.

The couple reactors being built in the U.S. will never operate.


We are currently in the process of doing a refit on Darlington. There was a proposed upgrade to add another 4 reactors that was shelved because we didn't need the energy. I know OPG was looking to go forward with it.

I don't think we need "more", we can simply upgrade our existing sites.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And regarding your examples of Nuclear failures, Chernobyl was a Soviet catastrophe and doesn't represent the current state of the Nuclear industry. TMI, while scary, never amounted to anything. Fukushima is a good example however of what happens when you have a combination of issues such as antiquated reactor design, proximity to a source of potential environmental disaster, and actual control failures.

How many CANDU reactors have ever melted down? Zero. We also have the most powerful Nuclear plant in the world up here (Bruce). Ontario is a shining example of a healthy Nuclear power industry with the majority of our power coming from the Bruce and Darlington sites.

Don't even have to go that far. We can be charitable and accept those disasters, and nuclear still crushes everything else.

In fact, we can be even more charitable than that. Imagine that EVERYONE at Chernobyl got cancer from the radiation they were exposed to, and that ALL of those people died from that cancer. Then figure on comparable numbers for Fukushima. Even in that essentially impossible scenario, see if the death rate per TWh for nuclear power even comes close to that of any other power generation method viable for large scale use.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html
 
I believe it is a new age and we have to think differently. A steady 24/7 365 output is no longer as big a deal with energy storage options becoming more viable and prevalent.

We do need to go back to nuclear. The accidents at Chernobyl and in Japan were really stupid. We need nuclear but need to keep it out of corporate penny pinching hands.

There are too many stupid MBAs running things important to society.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Kuato
but: Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Interested in a show of hands as to who watched it...


Not me.


What exactly do you KNOW about TMI, Chernobyl, and Fukashima ?

Actual understanding, zero linear threshold, numbers of deaths etc.


I won't pretend to be educated in Physics or any discipline required to discuss this on your level, and I'm sure my answer won't be detailed enough for some, but I'll answer:

Chernobyl: test gone wrong, controls removed, system failure. Several hundred square miles rendered uninhabitable by humans from 200-500 years or more, depending on who you talk to. Russia isn't telling how many actually died but the number is high, not to mention additional (estimated) cancer deaths. Add to that the electronics from the area that have been showing up in Kiev for the last 25+ years while still putting out dangerous amounts of radiation.

TMI: system failure, human error, poor communication and meltdown. This was a level 5 of 7 on the nuke disaster scale....although no deaths were directly caused by the meltdown, the potential was there, especially considering the population density.

Fukushima: I think we're all up on this one since it happened so recently, but in a word: Tsunami. 537 directly related deaths. Plus, after the backup generators quit, they made the financial decision to delay the emergency flooding of the reactors with seawater since it would destroy them permanently...and only did it when the government ordered them to do it. If they'd flooded right away and chosen safety over money, there would likely have not have been a meltdown at all.

Which comes to my point: as long as the managers/owners of nuclear facilities don't have the integrity to run them safely FIRST and cheaply somewhere in priority after that there will be the potential for problems.



Overkill, I'm not familiar with CANDU, but have a great respect for the way Canada does things right and hope their safety record remains untarnished. There are detriments to solar panels, the solar towers used in Spain have their issues, and those technologies have a long way to go. I'd agree that the cheap power king right now is nuclear.


This is a great discussion.
 
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I think people are unreasonably scared of nuclear here in the US while giving other forms of energy a pass. A perfect example is the dangers of the coal industry.

2010: Upper Big Branch mine disaster - 29 deaths
On average about 24 miners die per year in coal mining accidents.
Coal ash slurry spills - example Kingston Fossil spill

That's just an example that in this country coal has had more environmental impact than nuclear.
 
Originally Posted By: Kuato
It's not a question of can IMO, but if or perhaps when.
The technology & resources do exist for such a project these days, no doubt. However, does it make sense? What are the costs? And not just the construction, but maintainence? Is North Africa stable enough politically? Doubtfull. There is a reason HVAC is used instead of HVDC in long distance transmission lines. That was figured out more than a 100 yrs ago. These amongst many other considerations, and limitations, both natural and man-made. Politics being a rather large one...

Originally Posted By: Kuato
The technology, ability and resources exist to power the entire world without polluting. If only people could discard their prejudice and hatred to work together.
That's quite a statement!! Very simple to type, but most difficult to prove. Further, I doubt anyone could actually afford it. This is where dreamer plans usually run head-first into the reinforced concrete of Reality and Natural Law, not to mention Mother Nature.

On the other side, you don't build something like this in a politically unstable region like the Middle East. There is a lot of hatred and homocidal maniacs there. It's difficult to change the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. Recent history is full of examples.

Originally Posted By: Kuato
One example:http://cleantechnica.com/2011/12/14/solar-energy-from-the-sahara-desert-could-power-the-world-but-will-it/


Quote:
is a set of plans for a massive network of solar and wind farms stretching across the Mena region and intended to connect to Europe via high voltage direct current transmission cables (which are supposed to only lose 3% of their electricity per 1000km, or 620 miles).

Although Desertec has been widely regarded as nothing more than an unattainable dream for most of its history, it’s been gaining some momentum over the past two years.

Paul Van Son, Dii’s CEO, claims the project is international in nature. According to the Guardian, he said: “Yes, the initiative came from Germany. But there are 15 different nationalities involved, including companies such as HSBC and Morgan Stanley. This is just the start.” [I didn't realize that HSBC and Morgan Stanley were nationalities.....since when?]

One of the difficulties in maintaining CSPs is the harsh desert itself; while damaging sandstorms are relatively rare, the troughs must be tilted away from the wind if it reaches a certain speed. Bodo Becker, operations manager at a German company specializing in building CSP plants designed for desert use, says that if the troughs are not moved away from high winds, they act like giant sails. (That’s definitely not good for the equipment.)

Keeping the troughs clean isn’t easy, either; dry cleaning technology is being developed, but it doesn’t quite work yet. Currently, water is used both to cool the heat transfer fluid and clean the array. It’s a lot of water, according to Becker, as reported by the Guardian:

“Due to the dusty conditions, we are witnessing about 2% degradation every day in performance, so we need to clean them daily. We use about 39 cubic meters [10,300 gallons] of demineralized water each day for cleaning across the whole site.”

The total cost of completing the project is a barrier, too – it’s currently estimated at over $500 billion USD.
shocked2.gif
A number of recent climate conference attendees focused on the question of how Desertec could be financed; EU subsidies, tariffs added to European energy bills, and bank loans were all the subject of speculation.

Among other problems not mentioned is sand-blasting of the parabolic reflectors. And, demineralized water is far from "regular" water out of the tap...

Finally, Kuato: You need to figure out why Chernobyl doesn't belong with the other two reactors you mentioned. Not even close....
 
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Chernobyl: test gone wrong, controls removed, system failure. Several hundred square miles rendered uninhabitable by humans from 200-500 years or more, depending on who you talk to. Russia isn't telling how many actually died but the number is high, not to mention additional (estimated) cancer deaths. Add to that the electronics from the area that have been showing up in Kiev for the last 25+ years while still putting out dangerous amounts of radiation.

TMI: system failure, human error, poor communication and meltdown. This was a level 5 of 7 on the nuke disaster scale....although no deaths were directly caused by the meltdown, the potential was there, especially considering the population density.

Fukushima: I think we're all up on this one since it happened so recently, but in a word: Tsunami. 537 directly related deaths. Plus, after the backup generators quit, they made the financial decision to delay the emergency flooding of the reactors with seawater since it would destroy them permanently...and only did it when the government ordered them to do it. If they'd flooded right away and chosen safety over money, there would likely have not have been a meltdown at all.

Which comes to my point: as long as the managers/owners of nuclear facilities don't have the integrity to run them safely FIRST and cheaply somewhere in priority after that there will be the potential for problems.

All true and important, but not the point.

We could play the same game with airline disasters, stringing together a bunch of stories to make air travel look like a holocaust. The fact remains that if you actually do the math, it's the safest form of travel in existence.

As I posted earlier, the only way to come to grips with this is to calculate deaths per terawatt hour. Try that for nuclear power and compare the number to that of any other form of power generation, and see what happens.



Originally Posted By: Kuato
I'd agree that the cheap power king right now is nuclear.

Actually, I'm pretty sure lifecycle cost per kWh is the one thing nuclear power is bad at. I know it's cheap once the reactor is built, but the cost to build the reactor and then decommission it afterward is just that much higher.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I believe it is a new age and we have to think differently. A steady 24/7 365 output is no longer as big a deal with energy storage options becoming more viable and prevalent.

I don't think that's true yet, but it will be. The only question is how soon.


Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We do need to go back to nuclear. The accidents at Chernobyl and in Japan were really stupid. We need nuclear but need to keep it out of corporate penny pinching hands.

I mean, yeah. I still think you and sleddriver are choosing the weaker line of argumentation on this point. As I've said, you don't have to write off Chernobyl and Fukushima; you can allow them to be even WORSE than anyone reasonably thinks they were, and nuclear power STILL comes out on top by a healthy margin.


Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There are too many stupid MBAs running things important to society.

Maybe. I think the bigger problem is that we in the general public are largely innumerate. We don't make decisions by the numbers, and we don't comprehend statistical arguments. Instead, we make decisions based on what's flashy.
 
I wonder if the Blue Castle project will ever get off the ground. I hear conflicting data on the availability of water to run the plant. A lot of the water will evaporate. We don't have enough water as it is and Lake Powell is about 50% low.
 
Huato,
a lot of the things that you address are in the video.

There's pie in the sky "renewables will save us", there's a woman in charge of system control and stability talking about storage grid side and meter side of grid, what they need for stability, demand side management, and some dicussion about geographic distribution of wind/solar to provide a semblence of reliability. Also small pump storage for peak shaving.

I'd suggest that you watch it (only singling you out as the only person honest enough to say you didn't watch it...but have lots to say about it).
 
Thanks for posting--I found it quite interesting! Clearly a lot of folks have a lot to say about it without actually watching it...

One thing I'm struggling to wrap my head around is the "nuclear option", pun not intended...

Let's remove the political ramifications of the whole deal and just look at the costs (even the geopolitical costs including increased security given the increased threat of attack against a nuclear installation--if that's even a real thing).

I'm having a hard time really actual reliable figures on the cost of nuclear. The production costs are low, but that seems to be a tiny fraction of the actual costs. Obviously this is a total dog's breakfast trying to sort this out for any type of power, but most estimates out there seem to suggest that nuclear power is pretty expensive.

One thing that seems clear is that long term--likely after I'm dead long term--energy storage is the next frontier if renewables are really going to be the sole source.
 
Storage is going to be a big deal regardless of the progress of renewables. It could greatly reduce transmission losses, help maximize the time power plants spend in their most efficient operating ranges, and stabilize the grid in case of failures.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Fast breed. And yes, the nuclear fuel rods can be recycled and in fact we used to do it up here back when it was cheaper than mining it. However, that changed and so we currently don't recycle the fuel, though the option is there.

Never see it in the U.S.. Nuke power is dead in the U.S. totally.
TVA is seeking a license for a new reactor now.

TVA seeks to license the first U.S. nuclear reactor of this century
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/tva-seek...century/404144/
 
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