Is this whats wrong with BMW?

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: gregoron
1. Would cooling down the engine and turbos prior to shutting it off allow less current draw from the batteries?

Yes. More charge time, too. Probably wouldn't cure the problem, but would certainly reduce it.


Originally Posted By: gregoron
Some turbocharged engine's owner's manuals say to let the car cool down a couple of minutes after a hard drive prior to shutting down engine anyways.

Well, yes. Wouldn't be easy or prudent for BMW to rely on that as a defense, though. Maybe for a super-niche sports car, but not for cars that are supposed to be reliable daily drivers for non-enthusiasts.

They could just make the car leave the engine on after the owner requests a shutdown if it's too hot. That sounds like its own kind of PR nightmare, though. I'm just imagining incredulous calls from owners demanding to know why their cars won't turn off, or worrying about pumping their garages full of exhaust.


Originally Posted By: gregoron
2. Would putting vents on the hood allow for the turbos to cool down faster?

Maybe, though it'd be hard to design in any case. It'd have to keep exhaust heat in on a cold start, let heat out when necessary, and keep rain and debris out at all times, all without looking hideous or out-of-place.


Originally Posted By: gregoron
Just theories open to opinions.

Hypotheses, not theories.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
This is ridiculous, LSD should be standard equipment in a performance car such as BMW M sport.

Agreed.

Just goes to show you who the car was made for. You never leave a LSD off the spec sheet unless you expect the car to be driven mostly by people who don't know what they're doing.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I'm sure their are aftermarket tuners that fix the issue.


So i buy an $80,000 new BMW then have to take it to an aftermarket tuner to somehow find a fix that may also void my warranty if the dealership discovers I've tampered with engine management systems. In essence, giving them an easy out. How many levels of unacceptable did i just cross?


No you lease one under full warranty and its the guy a couple owners down the food chain that picked it up for $25k that just gives up and fixes it.

 

[d00df00d]

Sad but true.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: BTW
I've said it before and I'll repeat it here...

I would NEVER own a modern BMW out of warranty


Which explains why leases are so popular...followed by CPO with nice long warranties for 2nd tier customers.

3rd tier can go pound sand, why do you think their is nothing more worthless than a 5-7 year old high end European vehicle? IF you follow the depreciation curve to around the 8-10 year mark you have Honda CRV's worth about as much as Range Rovers.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Having said that BMW's engines tend to be more fragile than Mercedes, their TT's V8's have no such issues.

Just had a thought about this. I know this BMW engine runs a "hot V", i.e. turbos in the valley between the banks. Does Mercedes do the same? If not, that might explain the difference -- I'd imagine there'd be less risk of heat soak if the turbos were separated from each other, and thus less need to run the cooling system after shutdown.


No, Mercedes turbo's are on the outside where they belong, they also use less plastic. They have a few issues but no where near the issues BMW has, far more robust designs all around.

But remember BMW was the UDM, and built lighter forever really, Mercedes were boring tanks.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I've been looking at cars for a while and in the process I've talked with several long time BMW CCA members. At least two have bought Cadillacs- one has a CTS-V and the other a CTS Vsport. The Vsport owner's opinion of new BMWs: "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building." A couple of others have gone with Boxsters, Caymans, or S4s. And I know of at least five CCA Members who plan to buy the new GT350 when it rolls out. One day the "wearers" and poseurs will move on to the Next Cool Thing and Munich will scramble to find their traditional loyal buyers and find them missing as well. And I will be among them...


It's why I ended up with a Mercedes instead of BMW, BMW seems to have a bit more problems than Mercedes. I think Audi is even worse, but they've been getting better lately too. To be fair, Mercedes has their fair share of problems with various other platforms too, it just basically boils down to researching the particular year and model that you're planning on buying.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
This is ridiculous, LSD should be standard equipment in a performance car such as BMW M sport.

Agreed.

Just goes to show you who the car was made for. You never leave a LSD off the spec sheet unless you expect the car to be driven mostly by people who don't know what they're doing.


Mercedes does the same thing with their AMG, there's a special performance package that's extra that includes the LSD, and it's a lot extra too, part of a package where they throw in special rims so they can charge even more. You can pick up AMG models that are 6-10 years old for 20-30k and they probably went for anywhere from 60-100k when new.

 

[DeepFriar]

Quote:
Though, to be fair, we haven't yet seen whether the 4.0TFSI will last as long as the N63. If it does, then yes, we'll be able to say that Audi has done it better.

Regarding the 2003 2.7T, a few counterpoints. It's MUCH smaller and less powerful than the N63, so its electrical and cooling demands are much lower. Plus, after-run cooling or no, doesn't it still cook stock turbos?


No. At least mine didn't. I also had an '86 Quattro Turbo that had the after-running water cooled center section (and the weird hoses that went with it) and it survived to over 100K as well. I have to say though, the five year extended warranty was the best money I ever invested.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

This is ridiculous, LSD should be standard equipment in a performance car such as BMW M sport.

Everything in Honda S2000 with MSRP less than $35k was standard, including LSD and HID.
To be fair, the S2000 was basically Honda's flagship car, regardless of price. The M5 (and I believe the M3 and Z8 where applicable) came with factory auto-levelling HID's, Navigation, LSD, rain-sensing wipers, stability control, climate control, speed-sensitive volume, factory DSP, parking sensors, 12 airbags (IIRC)....etc. Optional equipment was extended leather, front parking sensors, the ski bag passthrough and a few other "goodies".

The problem when comparing Honda to BMW is that BMW sells cars that are far outside the range of price that Honda sells cars. Their model line-up, like Honda's, is structured from base to top-end, but the top-end for BMW is significantly more money, so you have to look at the relativity of the scale to draw the sort of comparison you are attempting to make here.

This same situation applies with Mercedes who makes many models that are north of 100,000 dollars. Just the way it is.

BMW is "Ultimate Driving Machine" therefore all models from lowly 320 to top of the line Z8 should have LSD as standard equipment. Honda knew that LSD is needed in the S2000, so they designed with it from beginning.

Honda/Acura makes it simple, either certain models have HID(S2000, RL, TL ...) or Halogen(Accord, TSX ...) headlight.

If Honda can include HID as standard equipment in a sub $40k car(s) then BMW, MB, Audi should have HID as standard in the $50-60k or higher. IIRC, 2000 MB S500, E500, E430 ... had HID as an option at around $1k.

The MB S500 was around $80k and you have to pay $1k for HID while Honda has it as standard equipment with the lowly S2000 costed less than half the S500.

When I bought my E430 I wanted it without $1k sunroof option. I was told that all E430 came to US with sunroof, they had to special order a car without sunroof and it costed $1k extra for special order and waiting time can be as long as 6-7 months.

Why all cars came with sunroof option ? If it is an extra cost option then buyer should be able to buy one without it. If all cars come with it then it isn't an option.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I'm sure their are aftermarket tuners that fix the issue.


So i buy an $80,000 new BMW then have to take it to an aftermarket tuner to somehow find a fix that may also void my warranty if the dealership discovers I've tampered with engine management systems. In essence, giving them an easy out. How many levels of unacceptable did i just cross?


No you lease one under full warranty and its the guy a couple owners down the food chain that picked it up for $25k that just gives up and fixes it.


Yup, the unfortunate truth.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

BMW is "Ultimate Driving Machine" therefore all models from lowly 320 to top of the line Z8 should have LSD as standard equipment. Honda knew that LSD is needed in the S2000, so they designed with it from beginning.


:facepalm:

That's marketing, just like Honda markets "performance" but you sure as heck don't expect the Fit to do 0-60 in 4 seconds now do you? Subsequently, you can't expect a base model BMW to have higher-end features as standard equipment.

Honda knew the S2000 needed an LSD from the beginning? Jesus, you know BMW knew the M5, M3, Z8....etc all needed LSD's too and they got one. But just like you won't find one in a freakin' Fit, you aren't finding one in a base 320i either.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Honda/Acura makes it simple, either certain models have HID(S2000, RL, TL ...) or Halogen(Accord, TSX ...) headlight.


Good for them. BMW's lineup is slightly different but the same economies of scale apply. As I noted, the upper end is just a lot further up the price range than the products Honda sells.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
If Honda can include HID as standard equipment in a sub $40k car(s) then BMW, MB, Audi should have HID as standard in the $50-60k or higher. IIRC, 2000 MB S500, E500, E430 ... had HID as an option at around $1k.


You are missing the relativity part here. If BMW/Audi/Mercedes have a spread of vehicles from 30-130,000 dollars and Honda has a spread of vehicles from 14-40,000 dollars, the same "range" of vehicles; the same "upper level" are going to have a lot of the same "standard" equipment. But on the Euro sleds you'll find things that Honda doesn't include and further levels of luxury that simply can't be fitted to a car at that price point.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The MB S500 was around $80k and you have to pay $1k for HID while Honda has it as standard equipment with the lowly S2000 costed less than half the S500.


Lowly? It was the "best" Honda had to offer. So which is it, the awesome value at the top of the Honda vehicle lineup with all this "fantastic" standard equipment or just a "lowly" car because it costs less than the Mercedes?

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
When I bought my E430 I wanted it without $1k sunroof option. I was told that all E430 came to US with sunroof, they had to special order a car without sunroof and it costed $1k extra for special order and waiting time can be as long as 6-7 months.

Why all cars came with sunroof option ? If it is an extra cost option then buyer should be able to buy one without it. If all cars come with it then it isn't an option.


Because it's a freakin' Mercedes and perhaps their research showed that most people wanted the bloody sun roof? I'm more curious as to why you bought a Mercedes given your gripes expressed here. You really don't seem to be part of their target market

It sounds like you want M5 features on a 325i budget and that's now how things with German cars work.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Honda/Acura makes it simple, either certain models have HID(S2000, RL, TL ...) or Halogen(Accord, TSX ...) headlight.

If Honda can include HID as standard equipment in a sub $40k car(s) then BMW, MB, Audi should have HID as standard in the $50-60k or higher. IIRC, 2000 MB S500, E500, E430 ... had HID as an option at around $1k.

The MB S500 was around $80k and you have to pay $1k for HID while Honda has it as standard equipment with the lowly S2000 costed less than half the S500.

When I bought my E430 I wanted it without $1k sunroof option. I was told that all E430 came to US with sunroof, they had to special order a car without sunroof and it costed $1k extra for special order and waiting time can be as long as 6-7 months.

Why all cars came with sunroof option ? If it is an extra cost option then buyer should be able to buy one without it. If all cars come with it then it isn't an option.


The later year Mercedes had more than just HID, they have active curve illumination which means that there are motors in the projectors that turn the beam when you turn the steering wheel. I think in Europe they also required headlamp washers for HID, you don't normally see them on Japanese models. The lights also auto level so it's not just a simple HID. Anyway, it's all a moot point now, the last couple of years they've switched over to LED headlights so HID are gone. The level of luxury also keeps growing, now instead of a sunroof, a panoramic sunroof is luxury and a regular sunroof is standard.

 

[camrydriver111]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
None of my current BMWs have a warranty; I'm not terribly worried as they aren't anywhere near as complex as the Fxx cars. That said, what has turned me off BMW(after32 years of continuous ownership) is the shameless pandering to the poseurs, badge wh*res, and other assorted idiots who would buy/lease a "Beemer"[sic] even if it had the driving dynamics of a 1979 Chevette.
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...


Some people want a LSD, some people want an M badge.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Before we picked up our E350C, I looked at the equivalent 3 series, and found it to be rather cheesy. The worst was the plastic "nike swooshes" on the fender that I guess are supposed to look like vents or something. A far cry from the high quality, detailed, machined aluminum looking vents on the E46 M3.

One of my first cars was an E30 325is. It was from a different planet than today's BMW's. I'm told that the 1-series engineering team was given an E30 and told to make the 1-series just like it. Fail.

There's only one thing that makes a past model so inconic compared to it's descendants: An absolute failure to exceed the concept, or even match it with the newer models.

It's not that BMW is bad. We just know they could do so much better.

 

[KrisZ]

I don't know what are you people complaining about.
If a boat load of people are buying Toyotas because they are reliable, then it is proof that it is the most reliable manufacturer.
If a boat load of people are buying BMWs because it is the ultimate driving machine, then it must be the ultimate driving machine. The market has spoken

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I'm sure their are aftermarket tuners that fix the issue.


So i buy an $80,000 new BMW then have to take it to an aftermarket tuner to somehow find a fix that may also void my warranty if the dealership discovers I've tampered with engine management systems. In essence, giving them an easy out. How many levels of unacceptable did i just cross?


Sounds like Harley Davidson

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

If a boat load of people are buying Toyotas because they are reliable, then it is proof that it is the most reliable manufacturer.


In my experience they are the most reliable. I have a 2012 Avalon with 65000 miles purchased new.....the only issue was the cup holder spring broke. The wife has a Lexus ES350 (second one) Now with 250,000 accumulated miles....zero issues.

 

[edwardh1]

what is led?
limited slip?
LSD a drug?
?

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Before we picked up our E350C, I looked at the equivalent 3 series, and found it to be rather cheesy. The worst was the plastic "nike swooshes" on the fender that I guess are supposed to look like vents or something. A far cry from the high quality, detailed, machined aluminum looking vents on the E46 M3.

One of my first cars was an E30 325is. It was from a different planet than today's BMW's. I'm told that the 1-series engineering team was given an E30 and told to make the 1-series just like it. Fail.

There's only one thing that makes a past model so inconic compared to it's descendants: An absolute failure to exceed the concept, or even match it with the newer models.

It's not that BMW is bad. We just know they could do so much better.
What one used to pay for in a BM is performance which can't be used in most of America without putting your license at risk, so the process of going from performance cars to status symbols continues. The new ones are far too full of electronic "gottahavit" gimcracks for me.
Now, that '83 633CSI my son's getting into shape, THAT'S an interesting car.