Diesel Oil in a Gasoline Passenger Car ?

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Gena, I must respectfully disagree. Read a few owners' manuals recommendations. Among wordings I've come across are those they will all say S"X" or better or S"X"/GF"#" or better, because API and ILSAC specifications are backwards compatible, but a lot of people don't know that. For my F-150, I'm quite content using Quaker State in SM/GF-4, even though the dipstick calls for SF. I know full well that I cannot find an SF licensed oil any longer, so I buy what's currently available. The "better" wording is just what I've seen, rather than "newer" or "current." I'm not saying that SN/GF-5 is "better" than SM/GF-4. It's just wording that we've come across.

The alternative I've seen, as in my G37 manual, is to show a picture of the contemporary API Donut and Starburst (which in my case shows SM and Resource Conserving and 5w-30) and to advise to choose that viscosity and to "elect only engine oils that meet the American Petroleum Institute (API) certification or International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) certification and SAE viscosity standard." In other words, buy a 5w-30 that is current, with API or ILSAC approval. I'm well aware that my current G37 oil choice of Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is outside the formal manual recommendation (SM or newer is called for, GF-4 or newer is an option, and 5w-30 is the preferred viscosity), and I'm not claiming otherwise. Nobody at Imperial Oil showed any indication of panic, however.

I did not suggest that CJ-4/SM is forward compatible with SN/GF-5; they are mutually exclusive based on HTHS alone. However, I will stand by my point that if an engine calls for a 5w-40 in SM or better (as in SM was current when the vehicle's manual was printed), then Rotella in 5w-40 and CJ-4/SM is perfectly valid and fits the certifications called for to the letter. Not every vehicle manual out there requires ILSAC certification, and if they're not calling for an ILSAC grade, they cannot call for ILSAC certification, at least not rationally.

You should be well aware that any vehicle that actually calls for a 40 grade cannot require this to be ILSAC approved, since the HTHS of a 40 grade disqualifies it from ISLAC certification, at least using any modern version of SAE J300. It would be just as silly to ask for a 5w-40 in A1/B1 A5/B5, since the specifications are mutually exclusive to the grade. Also, don't mention low-SAPS or SA levels unless you really want to take a look at the numbers. Rotella 5w-40 obviously will have higher levels than an SN/GF-5 oil, but certainly lower levels than the A3/B3 A3/B4 competition, including such oils in Shell's own lineup. Fortunately, the ACEA E7, E9 ratings of Rotella 5w-40 keep the TBN high and the SA comparatively low.

So, no, Rotella 5w-40 isn't the specified choice for a vehicle calling for an SN/GF-5 oil. Rotella 5w-40 cannot obtain ILSAC approval. However, Rotella 5w-40 CJ-4/SM is a perfect choice if an engine calls for a 5w-40 in SM, and there are a few people on BITOG who require such a lube.

Alternative, Imperial Oil has no such CYA attitude with respect to Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40. They recommend it for high performance gasoline engines specifically, and explicitly remind people of the SM approval.

So, when the owner of a Subaru or another make that calls for, specifically, a 5w-40 in SM asks for my recommendation, which would you prefer I recommend, Rotella 5w-40 CJ-4/SM or Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 CJ-4/SM?
 
If I interpreted Gena's post like I think I did, she's saying you shouldn't be running Freightliner/Peterbilt oil in your Infinity.
grin2.gif
 
Technically, there aren't Freightliner/Peterbilt builder approvals on the oil. On the other hand, my Fumoto was from an International dealer.
wink.gif


Also, technically, I didn't ask for Shell's marketing team's critique on my oil choice. I asked one person's opinion before, and I dare the marketing team to start with him on this issue. Incidentally, it's clear that Exxon-Mobil and Imperial Oil feel their E7, E9 5w-40 lubricant to be more versatile than Shell does about their E7, E9 5w-40 lubricant. Imperial Oil and XOM have a fairly open ended recommendation about high performance engines. The Shell marketing team doesn't like Rotella CJ-4/SM 5w-40 being used in SM 5w-40 applications, perplexingly.
 
If Shell doesn't want me using their CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN engine oils in modern emission controlled gasoline fuelled vehicles, I'm OK with that.

There are several other brands to choose from.
 
I say let the results speak for themselves. If you go to the UOA section and read about Subaru and modern VW gasoline engines using RT6, you will see some impressive reports.
 
While talking about using HDEO as a PCMO

It's worth visiting this thread
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1483841/1

A friend of mine was thinking if a mixed fleet oil (HDEO) is good, then a pure diesel engine oil (commercial lubricant) is better. In this case it had a TBN of 16 and sulphated ash of 1.9

This was answered nicely buy Doug Hillary in the thread above. Some quotes below.

DH: "HDEOs that are not endorsed "mixed fleet" and carry dual petrol/diesel API/ACEA Quality ratings should NOT be used in petrol engines. This especially applies to those with a very high TBN due to their likely SA levels"………..

DH: " Commercially available diesel engine lubricants (Commercial lubricants) that are not dual rated should NOT be used in petrol engines as excessive wear may be an outcome. This wear will most likely occur in the ring/piston/bore area"…..

DH: "As an example even DD state that "an oil with a TBN of 10 and an SA level of 1.2% mass is less desirable than an oil with the same TBN and 1% SA" It is the deposited SA levels that tend to cause wear - this may occur more in one engine family than another. Ring pack positioning etc all contribute to the end result"…

So, I advised my friend against it's use.
 
Yes, and some of them don't have anywhere near the zinc you'd see in even a GF-5 oil, notably if you're looking at some of the two-stroke diesel oils. That's an interesting thread, by the way. It looks like Audi Junkie was one of the first to pick up on the early rumblings of dexos. He and I discussed the matter quite a bit when the spec was actually introduced.
 
My oil stash is big enough, my oil wish list long enough, yet suddenly I am found wanting.
I can thank / blame you guys for that. I've been sipping the HDEO Kool-Aid.

My car's manual says it's fine to use an ACEA A3/B3/B4 rated 15W40. Which is even more encouraging, and this weight oil is fine for where I live.

I was checking out the local stores yesterday, and I can get two 15W40 oils, both at the same price.
One is a HDEO the other is a regular PCMO.

Which would you choose and why?

PCMO: Valvoline Engine Armour 15W40, Semi-Synthetic, API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3/B4, MB229.1, VW501.01 / 502.00 / 505.00 (TBN = 7.8, VI = 135).

HDEO: Castrol RX Super15W40, Mineral, API CI-4 plus / SL, ACEA E7, JASO DH-1, DDC Power Guard 93K214, Mack EO-N Premium Plus 03, Volvo VDS-3, Cummins CES 20078, Caterpillar ECF-2 (TBN = 10.9, VI = 135)

Regards,
SR5
 
In your case, there probably wouldn't be a lot of difference. I'm just surprised that A3/B4 lube has such a low TBN. I'm relatively certain I've never seen an A3/B4 15w-40 up here. Aren't most A3/B4 lubes usually 10w-40, 5w-40, and so forth? Also, isn't that TBN too low for A3/B4? Is Valvoline playing games with specifications again?

Assuming both oils meet the requirements for the vehicle, I'd be leaning towards the HDEO and its higher TBN.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
In your case, there probably wouldn't be a lot of difference. I'm just surprised that A3/B4 lube has such a low TBN. I'm relatively certain I've never seen an A3/B4 15w-40 up here. Aren't most A3/B4 lubes usually 10w-40, 5w-40, and so forth? Also, isn't that TBN too low for A3/B4? Is Valvoline playing games with specifications again?

Assuming both oils meet the requirements for the vehicle, I'd be leaning towards the HDEO and its higher TBN.


Hi Garak,
Thanks for your input, yes I agree, I would go the Castrol RX, but I would be very happy with either in my car.

Yes an A3/B4 oil should have a TBN of 10 or more. I think it's Valvoline Australia confusing specification with recommendation. It's not the first time, and it's quite annoying. Their Mid SAPS SynPower MST is rated A3/B3/B4/C3 which is just not possible. It needs a sulphated ash 8 or less for C3, yet above 1.0 (& less than 1.6) for A3/B4. The MST has a TBN of about 7. I rang up the valvoline tech help line, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

We are seeing quite a few (non-HDEO) 15W40 oils in Oz now days. Castrol make a GTX 15W40, rated SN/CF. The Valvoline Durablend is either 10W40 or 15W50 (plus others), and they make two minerals (XLD) 15W40 and 20W50. I think in the old days everybody just used 20W50 as their default oil, and this is slowly changing to 15W40, which is a step in the right direction for most people.

Right now a local auto store (SCA) has a sale, 5L of Castrol GTX 15W40 plus an oil filter for $20-. That's a great price in Australia.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
In your case, there probably wouldn't be a lot of difference. I'm just surprised that A3/B4 lube has such a low TBN. I'm relatively certain I've never seen an A3/B4 15w-40 up here. Aren't most A3/B4 lubes usually 10w-40, 5w-40, and so forth? Also, isn't that TBN too low for A3/B4? Is Valvoline playing games with specifications again?

Assuming both oils meet the requirements for the vehicle, I'd be leaning towards the HDEO and its higher TBN.


15w40 PCMO has been a staple here for decades. Historically just API rated but more recently ACEA rated and marketed as diesel oil also.
 
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On a sidenote, I should add that Castrol to my mental list of Castrol HDEOs. Our Walmarts carry like three or four of the things.

Valvoline does a couple weird things with their MaxLife up here, too, with respect to ACEA specifications. I'm not surprised that the tech line had no idea. Then, they should have bumped it elsewhere.

I've never seen a non-HDEO 15w-40, and with ILSAC oils ruling the day here, I suspect I never will. Almost all the 15w-40 examples here are dual rated anyhow. There are enough diesel engines calling for CJ-4 and the like to keep plenty of CJ-4/SM and CJ-4/SN HDEOs on the shelf.

There isn't a huge demand for ACEA speced stuff here. If someone has a European car, it's generally calling for one of the OEMs' proprietary specifications, anyhow.
 
When using a HDEO in a petrol car, any difference if it's rated CI-4 or CJ-4 ?
Assuming it's SL or SN rated too.

In otherwords, if I have a few HDEOs at about the same price, and with the same weight, which is the best specification to pay attention to ?
 
This question above may have been answered to some degree in another thread about Shear Stable HDEO Vs PCMO

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3834270/1

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

The API CJ-4 HDDO specification contains the Kurt Oban 90 cycle shear test. XX-40 oils must stay in grade (ie, have a KV100 of 12.5 cst min) after 90 cycles of being mechanically sheared. This almost certainly means that the oils are formulated with shear stable 22 SSI OCP VII.
The other thing that you need to bear in mind is that HDDOs tend to contain more additive than PCMOs, particularly ashless dispersant to handle the soot you get in diesel engines. This tends to reduce the amount of VII you need which in turn reduces the tendency of the oil to shear.


Also from the API web page on CJ-4 oil
http://www.apicj-4.org/faqs.html


"API CJ-4 oils are qualified utilizing several new engine tests that are more severe than those used for API CI-4 or API CI-4 PLUS oils thus defining a new category of oils with much more robust performance than previous categories. API CJ-4 oils are formulated for improved wear protection, deposit and oil consumption control, soot-related viscosity control, prevention of viscosity loss from shearing, used oil low-temperature pumpability, and protection from thermal and oxidative breakdown when compared to previous API performance categories."

Only thing is that most of the mixed fleet oils I can find easily appear to be CI-4 Plus, while the few CJ-4 oils I find are mostly not mixed fleet.
 
It's a wash, Supercheap will match it (if there's an SCA filter in that size)...that's what I do.
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Only thing is that most of the mixed fleet oils I can find easily appear to be CI-4 Plus, while the few CJ-4 oils I find are mostly not mixed fleet.

What specifically are the CJ-4 oils you're finding stating on the bottle? I know it's not easy down under. Doug Hillary got his current CJ-4/SN E6, E7, E9 lube from France, if I recall correctly. On the other hand, Imperial Oil up here got rid of CI-4+ and CI-4 oils as soon as they possibly could.

Delvac 1 5w-40, if you can find it, will be CI-4+ I believe, and be mixed fleet, probably SL. Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 will be CJ-4/SM, but I don't know what your availability would be like.

Part of the problem is that certain diesel specific oils are completely unsuitable for gasoline engines. However, there are enough out the without gasoline ratings "just because." They never bothered or they're panicky about people using them in their 0w-20 specified vehicles, or something similar. Motorcraft's HDEOs come to mind, where at least one of them lacks a gasoline specification, yet has CJ-4.

I would say that under normal circumstances, an E7, E9 or an E6, E7, E9 lube would be essentially CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN. I wouldn't fear that they would be a single purpose diesel oil, generally speaking. But, I'd much rather if Doug or Mola would comment on that, since I'm not comfortable going that far out on a limb.
 
Garak, you are as reliable as the sun rise, and that offer still stands for an ANZAC day drink.

I can't find many CJ-4 oils here. Castrol has Vecton 15W-40 which is CJ-4 / E9, or Vecton 5W-30 which is just CJ-4 (plus manufacture's standards like Volvo VDS4, CAT ECF-3, etc.) I haven't actually spotted them in the shops, just found them as local stock from wholesalers when searching the web. Mostly in 20L or 204L drums. I found one 5L bottle and it was just as expensive as Castrol Edge full synthetic.

However, Valvoline has just starting selling at some local stores, semi-synthetic Engine Armour Diesel 5W40, API CJ-4 / SN, ACEA A3 / B4 / E9 / E7. This too is getting up in price and almost as much as SynPower, but a lot harder to find than SynPower. Here SynPower is less than Castrol Edge, and the valvoline CJ-4 is less than the castrol CJ-4.

The only Mobil Delvac at my local stores is Delvac MX 15W-40, API CI-4 / SL, ACEA E7. I think the Castrol RX Super mentioned before (CI-4 Plus / SL / E7) is better and a few dollars less. Plus I like it's snazzy white castrol bottle.

Anyway, don't worry about me, I was more just doing a investigation of what HDEOs I had easy access to, and at what price.

Due to recent sales (35% off SynPower, 40% off Shell Helix, 25% off Repco filters), I have two OCI lined up and ready to go. Valvoline SynPower 0W-40 and Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, both MB 229.5, and both the same price or less than the HDEOs mentioned above.

It's rare to see the HDEOs discounted as much as the PCMOs when the sales are on. So the full synthetic PCMOs seem to be the better buying for me right now.

However if ever I see the Castrol RX Super or Valvoline Engine Armour Diesel on sale, I will be ready to pounce.

I'm like a sprinter in the blocks, just waiting for that big HDEO sale to start.
 
Wakefield aggressively markets their products up here, and there isn't a local distributor quite like there is with certain other oil companies, but the Castrol stuff, both PCMO and HDEO, is everywhere, and usually with a good special somewhere.

The Vecton 5w-30 looks pretty interesting. From the wording on the marketing material and a cursory look at the data sheet, I'd almost call it an E6, E7, E9 lubricant. If you look at Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30, you'll see a lot of similar builder approvals. Up here, the Vecton 5w-30 is called Elixion 5w-30, with identical numbers on the data sheet. Oddly enough, there aren't any ACEA approvals listed, either, nor an API gas rating. The only Vecton product we have here is one for natural gas.

Oddly enough, I'm not finding a 5w-40 HDEO in their listings any longer. I'm sure there was one. I don't know if they messed with their website or if that's now the case up here. They have, honestly, way too many 15w-40 varieties.

I figured there would be some trouble with Delvac 1 down your way. Doug certainly hasn't picked it at the local jobber over the years, if I recall correctly. I'm just fortunate that the distributor is only a couple of miles from one of my businesses. CI-4/SL or CI-4+/SL is exceedingly difficult to find here. Within about a month of carrying CJ-4/SM stuff, Imperial Oil got rid of all the older stuff, and they have a huge warehouse here, so I'm not sure how they accomplished that, since they didn't have a giant sale.

HDEOs do get an occasional sale up here, usually when the 20 litre pails are on special, but Walmart and Canadian Tire tend to want too much money anyhow. I get Delvac 1 from Imperial Oil cheaper at regular price than from Canadian Tire on their best special ever.

Doug: If you're reading this, they still use Wakefield House in the UK as the mailing address for our Castrol datasheets.
 
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