Do HDEO oils have too much detergent for OPE

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
713
Location
WV
I know we're obscessing here, but hey, that's what we do, right?
I was reading some technical papers on lubrication, and studies done for Porche, NASCAR, and VW, and found some interesting information. While it seems generally accepted that slightly higher Zinc/Phos levels are good for lots of heavy duty, hard use engines, the jury is still out of the detergent content. It seems high detergent oils, (HDEO) tend to wash cylinder walls down, preventing proper lubrication, and also, can wash away the boundary layer of anti wear additives, such as zinc/phos, moly, boron, etc. Racing oils which have quite high anti wear add packs, but little detergent, seem to have proven this fact out rather well. It seems in diesel engines the oil (with these higher detergent add packs) is pretty busy dealing with blowby and soot, and doesn't get to the point of washing away needed lubrication or boundary wear additives. It's quite and interesting supposition, that we, as Americans, have always adhered to the "more is better" theory, and here's yet another case it may not be true. Now, a lot of these oils are what are known as "mixed fleet" oils, and have spark ratings, but what exactly does that mean? The ILSAC rating for Xw30 oils limits the zinc (actually phos, but they're linked) content to something like
It would seem, at least from anecdotal data, that HDEO oils are doing just fine in air cooled engines, but could it just be that the manufacturers do know a thing or two about lubrication? I think we need to do some more reading. I'm not ready to go back to straight 30wt, or PCMO yet, but I'm interested in the theory.
 
Last edited:
It makes you wonder how semi truck and industrial engines last so long when using HDEOS.
 
Say an engine manufacturer says to use a 10w30 API SM oil and also gives a list of other weights that can be used depending on the ambient temperature.

In that situation, what would be the issue in running say Rotella T5 or T6?
 
What's your suggested alternative? I'm concerned that, say, supertech 30 weight is blended with old tech and is better off as a "dollar store oil" even though of course it's still got an API rating.

You can also have more fuel dilution and soot from crummy ignition/ carburetion that you hope the oil soaks up. Any synthetic will take the heat of being aircooled as well as if not better than HDEO.
 
I'm pushing nearly 3000 hours on a Kawasaki lawn tractor engine, in a John Deere lawn tractor, running Rotella T 10w-30. I change the oil every 125 hours.

This particular engine has a notorious cam gear failure. Some engines go 700 hours before failure, some might make it to 1500. Mine went 2300 hours before failing. Two JD dealers had never seen one go to 2300 hours. Unfortunately, it is a plastic piece.

So.... I'm not worried about any possible bad effects of using an HDEO in it.
 
Rotella t5 10w30 is dual rated SM. So it that particular oil not a diesel only rated oil? People seem more concerned with an oil cleaning than with its lubrication properties.
 
Last edited:
Diesel oils are not dual rated. HDEO oils are, at least rotella t5 10w30 is,SM rated.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Say an engine manufacturer says to use a 10w30 API SM oil and also gives a list of other weights that can be used depending on the ambient temperature.

In that situation, what would be the issue in running say Rotella T5 or T6?


Most recommend API as well as ILSAC, together. No HDEO will be ILSAC.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Say an engine manufacturer says to use a 10w30 API SM oil and also gives a list of other weights that can be used depending on the ambient temperature.

In that situation, what would be the issue in running say Rotella T5 or T6?


Most recommend API as well as ILSAC, together. No HDEO will be ILSAC.


Fair enough.

I was thinking of our 13 horse Honda which requires just API SF IIRC.
 
A significant amount of over thinking going on here, many if not most OPE service tech have used HDEO for years with no ill effects, results speak for them selves...

I have some sort of HEDO in both my power washer and generator(plus a fresh flat tappet Ford 302), they'll never see anything else...
 
Never heard of anyone here being accused of overthinking, (just kidding, of course).

I was just pointing out what's been written by leading lubrication engineers. I'm not saying it's dangerous to use it in air cooled engines, I'm simply pointing out some differing data, research, whatever.

I had trouble believing it's relevance to us from the getgo, simply because a lot of HDEO IS dual rated. But, on the other hand, I'm not sure what allows the dual rating. For instance, I can't imagine an 10W30 HDEO oil with 1500ppm zinc (phos) being necessarily good for my 2013 Altima, even though it's SN rated.

I've done some more research since posting that, (I love this tribology stuff), and found that, in my uneducated reading of oil analysis, that B&S oil specs out to be.....wait for it...and HDEO oil, with >2200ppm calcium and a heavy dose of zinc!!

Just some interesting anomalies in research data and real world specs.
 
Last edited:
Back in the 50s non-detergent oil was recommended, OPE ran just fine on it... In the '60s I had a 2 Hp B&S my grandfather gave me still ran great but deck was falling apart(sounds familiar eh?)... He'd use the cheapest oils avail, no doubt a bottle from the local cut rate Spur or Stallings self service station...
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
In that situation, what would be the issue in running say Rotella T5 or T6?

I would say so. With the wording you suggested, a 10w-30 SM would be fulfilled by a 10w-30 CJ-4/SM HDEO. Even then, I don't worry much. I see even more mangled manual recommendations in OPE and compressors than for vehicles. One of my compressors recommends a ND 30 on one page, and then 10w-30 Mobil 1 on the other. Those are both fine products in their own right, but they aren't even remotely the same, outside of KV100. As far as I'm concerned, if a compressor manufacturer isn't specifying an ISO grade, it tells me they're not exactly sure what they want you to use.

I use just about everything I have laying around or leftover in OPE, from 5w-30 conventional to a synthetic 0w-40 to 15w-40, to 5w-50. If I were still on the farm or making my living off the equipment, I might be a little pickier (or more confused), although I doubt it would make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top