Rotella T5 15w-40

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Originally Posted By: vindex1963
Originally Posted By: Reg# 43897
He does that...


Passionate about what I do for sure I thought the original question was a pretty simple one.


Every forum has one........


...and thankfully we do. dnewton3 is well respected for his no-nonsense posts backed by many years of research and applied common sense.
 
I asked Shell when T5 would get a JASO MA and this was the response:


While I’m not always aware of our marketing group’s priorities, I doubt that it is likely we would seek JASO MA or MA2 certification for the Shell Rotella T5 Synthetic Blend products in the near future. While use of our Shell Rotella T Triple Protection Oil SAE 15W-40 and Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40 in equipment with a wet clutch has become a good niche market for us, it is just that – a niche market. Truthfully, certification takes money, and I don’t believe this area is a current priority for Shell Rotella T5 oils.

Thank you for your interest in Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State Lubricants!


Regards,

Edward A. Calcote

Staff Chemist

Shell Lubricants North America Technical Information Center
 
Originally Posted By: vindex1963
Energy conserving is the enemy.


Energy Conserving is not additive... its an API test that this "oil
may result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a
whole"...

Technically speaking Energy Conserving tested oil can not defeat a
wet clutch in good working order... what is confusing the issue is the
fact that all motorcycle wet clutches will reach a point in their life
and start to slip... no one complains about clutch slip when the bike
is new... but on about the 27K to 57K range is when containments may
build up to point where the clutch begins to loose its grip... this is
usually discovered by the owner during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle
like at a track day... in error one can blame the oil but its really
the contaminants on the clutch plates...

So the notion that we should stay away from EC oil is on shaky
ground... fact is I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1
since 98 in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified
10% freer flowing than non EC oil... and we're talking about Honda's
homologated racer with a tall first gear good for 90mph that's known
to incinerate clutch plates...
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: vindex1963
Originally Posted By: Reg# 43897
He does that...


Passionate about what I do for sure I thought the original question was a pretty simple one.


Every forum has one........


...and thankfully we do. dnewton3 is well respected for his no-nonsense posts backed by many years of research and applied common sense.


+1
 
Rotella 15w-40 is great motorcycle oil as shown in the UOA's. Use with confidence.
 
Originally Posted By: vindex1963
I'm still looking for Victory's JASO MA seems they don't have one.....so OEM oil isn't safe either.


I'm not sure what you mean by "looking for ..." here.
21.gif

Vic does not have, to the best of my knowledge, a JASO-MA licensed lube.

Here is the direct quote from my manual for 2012 Victory XCT, page 103:
ENGINE OIL RECOMMENDATION
Polaris Recommends the use of VICTORY brand Semi-Synthetic 20W-40 Motor Oil or equivalent motorcycle oil that is approved for use in wet clutch transmissions (such as those with a JASO MA rating).

You have to acknowledge and accept that their statement can easily be interpreted in a (shall I say) "Clinton-esque" manner, as it were. So really, there are four choices here:
1) Vic's brand of oil (we don't know what spec's it has, or what classifications it may meet, but it's their branded lube and they clearly would warranty any associated issues if they should happen)
2) any lube that is designed for motorcycles that ALSO utilize a wet-clutch feature (this could be lubes like Mobil 1 20w-50 V-twin, which do NOT carry a JASO-MA rating, and not even are "recommended" as JASO-MA, but do clearly state they are approved as such; see their PDS)
3) any lube that is JASO-MA licensed (plenty of lubes on the approved list; most are VERY expensive)
4) any lube that is recommended for the JASO-MA application (enter stuff like Rotella TP and T6 here ... but not T5, as it it NOT recommended for MA, nor even motorcycle use)


In all, I think it's fair to say that perhaps the vagueness in their lube recommendation is that way on purpose? When you get down to it, they don't "require" anything. They call it a "recommendation" in both the title header and in the actual statement itself.

I disagree with your assessment that their oil isn't "safe either". I'm sure they have their branded product in a condition that satisfies their needs for the engine and tranny/clutch.

Perhaps the LACK of specific details is trying to tell us something; maybe it's just not that important?

I use Rotella TP 15w-40 in my Vic; it's "recommended" by Shell for the MA application. I completely agree that it's not licensed, but I trust that Shell understands the criteria well enough to offer coverage for a condition they directly market a product towards. I also agree that other product (such as the V-Twin Mobil 1 product) are probably OK, but they specifically do NOT list MA as part of the recommendation, although their wording clearly states it's OK for use even with wet clutch bikes; see their PDS).
I would NOT feel comfortable with a product such as the Mobil 1 15w-50, which is NOT marketed for bikes, does NOT have MA recommendation, and is NOT recommended for wet-clutch applications. But that does not stop others from using it, and they generally report no issues.

Here is the Mobil 1 V-Twin marketing page:
https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-v-twin-motorcycle-oil
and the PDS:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil_1_Motorcycle_Oils.aspx
Here is the PDS for the 15w-50; there is zero mention of any application for a motorcycle
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_15W-50.aspx


You're not going to find a Victory lube that is MA licensed to the best of my knowledge, however I'm confident their lube satisfies their performance criteria. You can either use a MA licensed product, a MA "recommended application" product, or a product that does state it is both motorcycle and wet-clutch compatible.

Or you can wing-it and use whatever you want outside the Vic criteria, but you'll not have any warranty coverage (OEM or lube related).
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I would NOT feel comfortable with a product such as the Mobil 1 15w-50, which is NOT marketed for bikes, does NOT have MA recommendation, and is NOT recommended for wet-clutch applications. But that does not stop others from using it, and they generally report no issues.


Just curious, WHO does not recommend Mobil 1 15W-50 for wet-clutches? Simply because its not JASO MA rated?

I've always operated under the principle, non-EC oil and I'll use it in my bike (w/ wet clutch). Never caused me any issues. I think you know it costs money ($$$) to certify oils to certain standards. Just because its not rated, doesn't mean it wouldn't pass or pass for that matter. For motor oils, motorcycles are a niche market... so there are fewer choices and generally more expensive as compared to passenger/diesel oils.
 
Anecdote, 5W50 Castrol syntec caused the clutch on my 2001 Kingquad atv to slip 4-5 years ago, switched back to RT 15W40 and RT6 5W40 and clutch holds fine still, with maybe 1500 hours on it. So I'm not experimenting with non motorcycle certified oils again, YMMV.
 
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I would NOT feel comfortable with a product such as the Mobil 1 15w-50, which is NOT marketed for bikes, does NOT have MA recommendation, and is NOT recommended for wet-clutch applications. But that does not stop others from using it, and they generally report no issues.


Just curious, WHO does not recommend Mobil 1 15W-50 for wet-clutches? Simply because its not JASO MA rated?

I've always operated under the principle, non-EC oil and I'll use it in my bike (w/ wet clutch). Never caused me any issues. I think you know it costs money ($$$) to certify oils to certain standards. Just because its not rated, doesn't mean it wouldn't pass or pass for that matter. For motor oils, motorcycles are a niche market... so there are fewer choices and generally more expensive as compared to passenger/diesel oils.



I am taking Mobil for the words at face value.

Mobil has a few products that are specifically marketed and "recommended" for service in bikes, and some of them actually mention "wet clutch" in the marketing description. (see the PDS links I put in above).

Mobil also has the 15w-50, which is NOT:
- marketed for bikes
- has no JASO-MA recommendation by Mobil
- has no "wet clutch" application recommendation by Mobil
I can find absolutely nothing in their product data or marketing info that states there is any reason to believe they want this in a wet-clutch bike.

As I said previously, that does not stop some folks from using it, and generally they report no issues. But I, for one, would prefer to use a product that is at least "recommended for use" for the application, as it gives a much better stance concerning warranty claims, should it become necessary to go that route.

If you read most any written limited warranty (including the Mobil warranty I linked), they clearly do NOT warrant any application of a product that is outside of their specific license or recommended ventures. Therefore, using 15w-50 Mobil 1 in a bike will void any warranty condition they offer.


I am not stating that non-EC oils won't work in a bike.
I'm just trying to delineate the choices for folks so they understand both the benefits and risks for each option.

The OP wanted to know about T5; it's not recommended for MA service requirements, nor is it recommended for wet-clutch applications. Same can be said about the 15w-50 Mobil 1. That does not mean they won't work, but it does mean you'll have zero coverage should something bad happen. And because both companies (Mobil and Shell) do offer products that meet the criteria (MA and wet-clutch concerns), why use a non-recommended product when they have recommended products available? To me the risk outweighs the reward; it's not worth it to exclude warranty coverage when I can easily get low-cost products that directly meet the application.


To each his own.
 
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You can use Mobil 15/50 in a Harley motor because it doesn't run the oil thru the primary, where the clutch pak is. Lots of guys have had very good results using it in in their air cooled motors.Big twins and Sportsters. I'm not sure if the V-Rod runs their oil thru the trans and clutch assembly.,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
You can use Mobil 15/50 in a Harley motor because it doesn't run the oil thru the primary, where the clutch pak is. Lots of guys have had very good results using it in in their air cooled motors.Big twins and Sportsters. I'm not sure if the V-Rod runs their oil thru the trans and clutch assembly.,,


I've read guys (Harley forums) run it in their primaries as well, or some kind of motor oil. HD primary oil is more motor oil than gear oil or transmission fluid. Personally starting using ATF in my dad's '98 softail and it's made shifting and finding neutral buttah-smooth.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I would NOT feel comfortable with a product such as the Mobil 1 15w-50, which is NOT marketed for bikes, does NOT have MA recommendation, and is NOT recommended for wet-clutch applications. But that does not stop others from using it, and they generally report no issues.


Just curious, WHO does not recommend Mobil 1 15W-50 for wet-clutches? Simply because its not JASO MA rated?

I've always operated under the principle, non-EC oil and I'll use it in my bike (w/ wet clutch). Never caused me any issues. I think you know it costs money ($$$) to certify oils to certain standards. Just because its not rated, doesn't mean it wouldn't pass or pass for that matter. For motor oils, motorcycles are a niche market... so there are fewer choices and generally more expensive as compared to passenger/diesel oils.



I am taking Mobil for the words at face value.

Mobil has a few products that are specifically marketed and "recommended" for service in bikes, and some of them actually mention "wet clutch" in the marketing description. (see the PDS links I put in above).

Mobil also has the 15w-50, which is NOT:
- marketed for bikes
- has no JASO-MA recommendation by Mobil
- has no "wet clutch" application recommendation by Mobil
I can find absolutely nothing in their product data or marketing info that states there is any reason to believe they want this in a wet-clutch bike.

As I said previously, that does not stop some folks from using it, and generally they report no issues. But I, for one, would prefer to use a product that is at least "recommended for use" for the application, as it gives a much better stance concerning warranty claims, should it become necessary to go that route.

If you read most any written limited warranty (including the Mobil warranty I linked), they clearly do NOT warrant any application of a product that is outside of their specific license or recommended ventures. Therefore, using 15w-50 Mobil 1 in a bike will void any warranty condition they offer.


I am not stating that non-EC oils won't work in a bike.
I'm just trying to delineate the choices for folks so they understand both the benefits and risks for each option.

The OP wanted to know about T5; it's not recommended for MA service requirements, nor is it recommended for wet-clutch applications. Same can be said about the 15w-50 Mobil 1. That does not mean they won't work, but it does mean you'll have zero coverage should something bad happen. And because both companies (Mobil and Shell) do offer products that meet the criteria (MA and wet-clutch concerns), why use a non-recommended product when they have recommended products available? To me the risk outweighs the reward; it's not worth it to exclude warranty coverage when I can easily get low-cost products that directly meet the application.


To each his own.




I was just curious if they [Mobil] specifically didn't recommend it... appears they don't, but also don't not-recommended it. Confusing, right? Which in my opinion can simply be a marketing-thing to delineate their passenger motor oils from the motorcycle ones... maybe not.

As far as warranty, the dealer would have to prove you used non-factory recommended oils... and the oil caused the issue. Worst case I can only imagine is a slipping clutch and that can be fixed either with an oil change, cleaning the plates or new plates. However that’s a whole other topic. I’m pretty sure people do a lot of things beyond what the manufacturer recommends, right or wrong…

Anyway rant-off
smile.gif
 
My personal opinion/experience, as long as it’s a “quality” oil, non-ec, proper weight and regular changes… you’ll never have problems in engines with shared transmissions. Me I use, Rotella T6 and TP, Mobil 15W-50, Castrol GTX 20W-50, Delvac and Delo. In standalone engine, separate transmission fluid, any quality oil of proper weight will do.
 
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I would NOT feel comfortable with a product such as the Mobil 1 15w-50, which is NOT marketed for bikes, does NOT have MA recommendation, and is NOT recommended for wet-clutch applications. But that does not stop others from using it, and they generally report no issues.


Just curious, WHO does not recommend Mobil 1 15W-50 for wet-clutches? Simply because its not JASO MA rated?

I've always operated under the principle, non-EC oil and I'll use it in my bike (w/ wet clutch). Never caused me any issues. I think you know it costs money ($$$) to certify oils to certain standards. Just because its not rated, doesn't mean it wouldn't pass or pass for that matter. For motor oils, motorcycles are a niche market... so there are fewer choices and generally more expensive as compared to passenger/diesel oils.



I am taking Mobil for the words at face value.

Mobil has a few products that are specifically marketed and "recommended" for service in bikes, and some of them actually mention "wet clutch" in the marketing description. (see the PDS links I put in above).

Mobil also has the 15w-50, which is NOT:
- marketed for bikes
- has no JASO-MA recommendation by Mobil
- has no "wet clutch" application recommendation by Mobil
I can find absolutely nothing in their product data or marketing info that states there is any reason to believe they want this in a wet-clutch bike.

As I said previously, that does not stop some folks from using it, and generally they report no issues. But I, for one, would prefer to use a product that is at least "recommended for use" for the application, as it gives a much better stance concerning warranty claims, should it become necessary to go that route.

If you read most any written limited warranty (including the Mobil warranty I linked), they clearly do NOT warrant any application of a product that is outside of their specific license or recommended ventures. Therefore, using 15w-50 Mobil 1 in a bike will void any warranty condition they offer.


I am not stating that non-EC oils won't work in a bike.
I'm just trying to delineate the choices for folks so they understand both the benefits and risks for each option.

The OP wanted to know about T5; it's not recommended for MA service requirements, nor is it recommended for wet-clutch applications. Same can be said about the 15w-50 Mobil 1. That does not mean they won't work, but it does mean you'll have zero coverage should something bad happen. And because both companies (Mobil and Shell) do offer products that meet the criteria (MA and wet-clutch concerns), why use a non-recommended product when they have recommended products available? To me the risk outweighs the reward; it's not worth it to exclude warranty coverage when I can easily get low-cost products that directly meet the application.


To each his own.




I was just curious if they [Mobil] specifically didn't recommend it... appears they don't, but also don't not-recommended it. Confusing, right? Which in my opinion can simply be a marketing-thing to delineate their passenger motor oils from the motorcycle ones... maybe not.

As far as warranty, the dealer would have to prove you used non-factory recommended oils... and the oil caused the issue. Worst case I can only imagine is a slipping clutch and that can be fixed either with an oil change, cleaning the plates or new plates. However that’s a whole other topic. I’m pretty sure people do a lot of things beyond what the manufacturer recommends, right or wrong…

Anyway rant-off
smile.gif



Call Mobil and ask them, I did. They will steer you towards the Motorcycle oils but they told me their Mobil 1 15W-50 would work fine in my Concours 14. I have 500 miles to go (for 3,000 miles) and I'll be posting a UOA on the 15W-50. The oil has performed great so far
smile.gif


But of coarse every time I mention Mobil 1 15W-50 Larry (BLS) comes by saying my motor is wearing out cuz that oil ranks 150 something on the RAT oil protection chart....????
 
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Even the Mobil 1 V Twin no longer has the JASO rating on the bottle. Just says it is wet clutch friendly. So if you do have a bike that requires you to use a JASO MA oil and run the Mobil V twin oil...you are violating your warranty requirements just the same as if you run the Mobil 1 15w50 from the standpoint of the people at Honda/Kawasaki/Harley/Suzuki etc headquarters.
 
But, if your bike is out of warranty you can feel free to use whatever oil you like. Here's another thing to chew on. I've never seen a uoa for a motorcycle oil that had a category, or mentioned excessive clutch material in the oil being sampled. So in their eyes, it's not a concern if you use any specific rated oil or brand as long as the test results are good, and the oil deemed serviceable. There's no extra or deleted items on the uoa result sheet, that would state the oil being tested was made for a automobile or motorcycle use, so why does everyone get hung up over that when the results are good?.,,
 
Came close to trying M1 15W-50 in my Ducati this last time around... chickened out and got JASO MA compliant Spectro 15W50 PAO/ester blend instead. My wallet hates me for it though.
 
Originally Posted By: bmwpowere36m3
I was just curious if they [Mobil] specifically didn't recommend it... appears they don't, but also don't not-recommended it. Confusing, right? Which in my opinion can simply be a marketing-thing to delineate their passenger motor oils from the motorcycle ones... maybe not.

As far as warranty, the dealer would have to prove you used non-factory recommended oils... and the oil caused the issue. Worst case I can only imagine is a slipping clutch and that can be fixed either with an oil change, cleaning the plates or new plates. However that’s a whole other topic. I’m pretty sure people do a lot of things beyond what the manufacturer recommends, right or wrong…

Anyway rant-off
smile.gif




To be honest, I don't know of many companies that spend a lot of time/effort telling you what NOT to do with their product, although our litigious society is making that a changing mantra each day. (examples: CAUTION- don't drink the drain cleaner; SAFETY WARNING- don't stick the long metal fork inside the toaster oven ... etc). Stupid people do cause more and more headaches for us "normal" folks, each day ...

Should Mobil (and any other lube maker/marketer) really have to tell us what NOT to use their products for? It is typically fully described in their written limited warranty statements, after all.

Just because they don't tell me not to use gear oil in my engine, does that mean it's OK for me to do so?
Just because they don't tell me not to use grease in my differential, does that mean it's OK for me to do so?

NO! Common sense (and written limited warranty) typically excludes the "wrong" application of products, when it comes to coverage.


The Mobil 1 15w-50 cannot, in any manner, be reasonably thought of for use in a wet-clutch/shared sump motorcycle. Mobil gives absolutely no indication it would be OK. That does not mean it's an assurance of harm that will come, but it most certainly lays the groundwork for a denial of warranty claim, and the FTC (whom oversees the M/M Act in it's application and enforcement) is likely not going to be very helpful when you try to sue Mobil or take them to arbitration. This becomes a matter of burden of proof; and you have very little in the way of proving that non-approved, non-recommended application was a good idea versus the mounds of data, lawyers and engineering time Mobil put into it.

Perhaps it's just a marketing choice; a move to make them more money? Quite possibly so. They want you to spend more money on licensed or recommended applications, so they only offer certain products for certain applications. I get that, and it's not illegal by any means. Don't like that sales program? Shift the paradigm; start your own multi-national, multi-billion dollar company and change the rules.


I wholly, completely agree that (depending upon specific application criteria) using a "non-recommended" lube may or may not harm the equipment, but it most certainly will cause a denial of warranty claim. And for what? What did you save? A few bucks?

Big risk; low reward.
 
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