USA toyota lies about oil viscosity for 2GR-FE

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
No, the 20W20s had an HTHS of 2.9, being Newtonian...Doc and CATERHAM would call them "really 30s"


Really? Do tell? So 20W oils were better in the 40's?


Reading and comprehension lacking...identify where I said "better"...be specific.

they are DIFFERENT...people keep claiming that 20W20 proves that "20s" have been used for years, when they were very different oils...you brought them into the discussion.

J300 was modified to include the HTHS minimums, and the minimum (and target) for the 0W20s is typically 2.6, while the 20W20s were typically 2.9+, the "minimum" for the 30 multigrades.



So, tell us Shannow. What's the difference of a Group I based 20W20 and the current Group II/III/++ blends of today?
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
No, the 20W20s had an HTHS of 2.9, being Newtonian...Doc and CATERHAM would call them "really 30s"


Really? Do tell? So 20W oils were better in the 40's?


Reading and comprehension lacking...identify where I said "better"...be specific.

they are DIFFERENT...people keep claiming that 20W20 proves that "20s" have been used for years, when they were very different oils...you brought them into the discussion.

J300 was modified to include the HTHS minimums, and the minimum (and target) for the 0W20s is typically 2.6, while the 20W20s were typically 2.9+, the "minimum" for the 30 multigrades.



So, tell us Shannow. What's the difference of a Group I based 20W20 and the current Group II/III/++ blends of today?


I think you are missing his point by a mile and I'm not sure why
21.gif


BTW, 20w-20 still exists:
https://www.mystiklubes.com/do/product/663112002

The older 20-weight oils were heavier than the oils of today; they had a higher HTHS. Hence, they are not the "same". That's what Shannow has been pointing out. If you click on the PDS in the Mystik link I just provided you'll see the VI of the product is 95. If you know why that's significant you should be able to understand what Shannow is saying.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh


I never said they were the "same", so why are you quoting me?


Because you seem to be going off your rocker? LOL
wink.gif


You brought up SAE 20 and made a sarcastic remark about CAFE. Shannow noted that this was not the same as a modern 20-weight oil; that 20w-20 was much heavier than what we currently think of when we think of a 20-weight oil. Closer in HTHS to a 5w-30 than a 5w-20.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is but you are coming across as hostile and somewhat confused. While the conversation may be silly, it certainly doesn't need to go where you seem to be taking it. Of course if this is not the case and I'm misinterpreting your "tone" here then I am welcome to be corrected. I don't have a dog in this fight, I just noted the posts in question and it struck me as a series of miscommunications regarding what was being conveyed.
 
0W-20 Idemitsu Zepro has been available in Russia and FSU markets since 2006. To be specific. Mobil 1 was there before. Some love Idemitsu over there for its VI.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
No, the 20W20s had an HTHS of 2.9, being Newtonian...Doc and CATERHAM would call them "really 30s"


Really? Do tell? So 20W oils were better in the 40's?


Reading and comprehension lacking...identify where I said "better"...be specific.

they are DIFFERENT...people keep claiming that 20W20 proves that "20s" have been used for years, when they were very different oils...you brought them into the discussion.

J300 was modified to include the HTHS minimums, and the minimum (and target) for the 0W20s is typically 2.6, while the 20W20s were typically 2.9+, the "minimum" for the 30 multigrades.



So, tell us Shannow. What's the difference of a Group I based 20W20 and the current Group II/III/++ blends of today?


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3474476/Blackstone_testing_of_ancient_

Some old 20W20s tested by Blackstone...as can be seen, they have VIs that would make them Newtonian, have significant additive packages, and extrremely high flashpoints.

The Newtonian nature would give them an HTHS in the 2.9 range, which is typical of an ILSAC xW30...

Citgo are helpful enough to include the HTHS for a number of monograde (Newtonian) oils,

http://www.technologylubricants.com/MSDS/CITGO/PDS/C500 single visc_pds.pdf

so as uou can see, using old 20W20s to promeote 0W/5W20 as having been around for half a century is false...as is the premise of calling Redlines 30s "really 40s" etc. based on J300 minimums.
 
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
the 2GR-FE in our 2011 sienna gets whatever i feel like at the time, including leftover shelf remnants which could have been anything from 5w50 to 0w20. it runs great and doesn't care, and neither do i, and neither should you.


What exactly brings you to an oil enthusiast forum ?


I'm sorry do you have something to contribute to the thread? If not, stop typing.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh


I never said they were the "same", so why are you quoting me?


Because you seem to be going off your rocker? LOL
wink.gif


You brought up SAE 20 and made a sarcastic remark about CAFE. Shannow noted that this was not the same as a modern 20-weight oil; that 20w-20 was much heavier than what we currently think of when we think of a 20-weight oil. Closer in HTHS to a 5w-30 than a 5w-20.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is but you are coming across as hostile and somewhat confused. While the conversation may be silly, it certainly doesn't need to go where you seem to be taking it. Of course if this is not the case and I'm misinterpreting your "tone" here then I am welcome to be corrected. I don't have a dog in this fight, I just noted the posts in question and it struck me as a series of miscommunications regarding what was being conveyed.


Perhaps it is because I keep detecting a "tone" of glib sophistry. I mention 20W oil from the pre-war and wartime Dodge trucks sent to the USSR under Lend Lease, and of course Shannow comes back with a Blackstone report some guy did for fun in 2012 where he rated oils from 1968 and probably from the 60's. I clearly said 30's and 40's and get the kneejerk, "See! Those 20W20 oils were hearty unlike the sewing machine 5W-20's today!" response.

I feel that that is a bit intellectually dishonest and there also seems to be repeated mischaracterizations present. I simply asked about 1940's era Dodge trucks that were run on 20W if not 10W for their service lives under duress. Many survived long after the war and went well into the 50's or 60's on those same, I assume crude, Soviet era motor oils. Not 1968 Havoline!!

But whatever, I'm out. Have fun with the sophistic mumbo-jumbo of selective "facts"..
 
You were wheeling out rubbish "facts" about 20s in Russia, and the historical use of the grade.

Then get all raggy when taken to task on the errors of your logic.

And speaking facts, I'd like to see the sewing machine quote that you attributed to me, the 10W quote that you attributed to yourself. I've scanned the thread, and I can't find those "facts"...is that selective, or just making stuff up ?

I could seriously return your sentiment from a few posts back.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Of course, they did use SAE20 1940's and 50's in their import Dodges. Was that CAFE too?


Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I clearly said 30's and 40's and get the kneejerk, "See!


Your clarity is astounding...

and the question I answered with the Blackstone tests.

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
So, tell us Shannow. What's the difference of a Group I based 20W20 and the current Group II/III/++ blends of today?


Whether they did the tests for fun or not...they are facts.
 
coming back to the topic, i'm thinking the international no-thin oil policy for this engine has to do with the VVT noises and issues that existed prior to the 2010-2011 revisions.

Quote:
The first cold start of the morning some Toyota and Lexus V6 owners, especially those who have the 2.5L or 3.5L V6, notice a loud rattle the first few seconds after startup. The noise disappears after the car builds oil pressure. The most common cause is the variable valve timing camshaft gear assembly leaking down oil pressure as it sits. What is this part and what should you do if you experience these symptoms?


http://carspecmn.com/toyota-and-lexus-v6-cold-start-engine-rattle-2gr3gr4gr/

it makes sense for heavier oil to stay in that VVT gear longer.

and there is also the issue of piston slap like noise (that i actually have) that is oil viscosity dependent too.

Quote:
I have an Aurion V6 2007 which has a noisy engine on cold start. Details below show a possible solution.

Just dropping some info on some recent experiences I had in determining the cause of a noisy engine on cold start up and continues until "FULL" operating temp. I am sure there are many drivers that have had a similar experience. The engine sounds like a diesel for the first 10 minutes of driving and slowly the noise smooths out. Drives you nuts!!!!! :blink:

I spoke to Toyota technical division and they have confirmed there is a paper which details the reasons for the noise which is very likely piston slap. From what I can gather from the info, the noise may be piston slap due to a greater gap between the cylinder and the piston when cold. I was advised this is normal. Not happy to just listen to the noise, I tried some other solutions. You may notice the oil that some service places use is 5W-30. This is thin oil and I found did not help the noise at all so I tried using Penrite 20W-50. This rating is acceptable as per the owners manual.

The difference was amazing. :yahoo: So much quieter. Easily a 100% reduction on noise levels. Obviously this will differ depending on the mean temperature on where the car is being driven. I hope this may help any fellow Aurion drivers out there with similar frustrations...


http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/19986-engine-noise-or-piston-slap-from-aurion-motor/

i'm thinking CAFE money is too valuable for toyota, so they are even willing risk customer satisfaction or even spend some more repairing noisy engines for under warranty in USA.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
coming back to the topic, i'm thinking the international no-thin oil policy for this engine has to do with the VVT noises and issues that existed prior to the 2010-2011 revisions.

Quote:
The first cold start of the morning some Toyota and Lexus V6 owners, especially those who have the 2.5L or 3.5L V6, notice a loud rattle the first few seconds after startup. The noise disappears after the car builds oil pressure. The most common cause is the variable valve timing camshaft gear assembly leaking down oil pressure as it sits. What is this part and what should you do if you experience these symptoms?


http://carspecmn.com/toyota-and-lexus-v6-cold-start-engine-rattle-2gr3gr4gr/

it makes sense for heavier oil to stay in that VVT gear longer.

and there is also the issue of piston slap like noise (that i actually have) that is oil viscosity dependent too.

Quote:
I have an Aurion V6 2007 which has a noisy engine on cold start. Details below show a possible solution.

Just dropping some info on some recent experiences I had in determining the cause of a noisy engine on cold start up and continues until "FULL" operating temp. I am sure there are many drivers that have had a similar experience. The engine sounds like a diesel for the first 10 minutes of driving and slowly the noise smooths out. Drives you nuts!!!!! :blink:

I spoke to Toyota technical division and they have confirmed there is a paper which details the reasons for the noise which is very likely piston slap. From what I can gather from the info, the noise may be piston slap due to a greater gap between the cylinder and the piston when cold. I was advised this is normal. Not happy to just listen to the noise, I tried some other solutions. You may notice the oil that some service places use is 5W-30. This is thin oil and I found did not help the noise at all so I tried using Penrite 20W-50. This rating is acceptable as per the owners manual.

The difference was amazing. :yahoo: So much quieter. Easily a 100% reduction on noise levels. Obviously this will differ depending on the mean temperature on where the car is being driven. I hope this may help any fellow Aurion drivers out there with similar frustrations...


http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/19986-engine-noise-or-piston-slap-from-aurion-motor/

i'm thinking CAFE money is too valuable for toyota, so they are even willing risk customer satisfaction or even spend some more repairing noisy engines for under warranty in USA.


Take a read here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston

Auto makers must meet many concerns, whether they be from governing bodies or from the consumers.
There are almost always trade-offs.

As you can see from the article. 'Piston slap' on a cold engine only, is mainly due to clearances. These clearances are chosen based on the application and materials used. It does not necessarily mean a low quality of build or any other problem.
This is one of the reasons why 'built' motors often experience piston slap when cold.
 
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke

As you can see from the article. 'Piston slap' on a cold engine only, is mainly due to clearances. These clearances are chosen based on the application and materials used. It does not necessarily mean a low quality of build or any other problem.
This is one of the reasons why 'built' motors often experience piston slap when cold.


thanks for posting. probably you missed the part i called the noise piston slap-like, as no one proved it's actually a true piston slap. if this is an actual piston slap, it's more likely due to the fact that those pistons have no skirts and have a solid lubricant side coating that eventually wears out.
 
jacek,
interesting considering the common "knowledge" on BITOG, Honda have stated that cam hydraulic systems are one of the challenges that they face moving to thinner oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
jacek,
interesting considering the common "knowledge" on BITOG, Honda have stated that cam hydraulic systems are one of the challenges that they face moving to thinner oils.




Really?


Then why do we get these retard posts in regards to hemi engines "requiring" a 20 grade or the vvt won't work.
By the sounds of it they operate better with a thicker oil.

Interesting.

Thanks Shannow


I hope nick keeps going. This whole thread had been awesome. I'm not sure just how far he can get that foot in his mouth but it appears he's up to the ankle so far.
 
Here's a photo of the manual for the one that I drove today.

Different formatting and words to the one quoted earlier in the thread, so it's at least thought of, not stock copy.

IMG_20150828_153028.jpg


The Ox carts have been delivering TGMO 0W20 (metal tin) to dealers for quite some years now, and it's not even on the radar for "recmmmended" viscosities.
 
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