Hasn't it been decided that Germany probably would have won WW2 if Hitler had not ordered an invasion of Russia? (Dividing his manpower against the massive Soviet army is what is believed to have been the start of his downfall.)
Nazi loot train purportedly found in Poland
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One never forces another to behave in a fashion.
For example, no one forces someone to beat their children, or their spouse, regardless the protestations of "so an so made me do it."
No one forces their spouse to cheat on them, no matter how many want to blame the victim for the cheaters behavior.
No one forces the rapist to rape his victim, no matter how many say she was asking for it because of what she wore.
And no one forced Germany to go to war with her neighbors and implement their solution to "The Jewish Problem" no matter how many want to blame the allies for their treatment of Germany after WWI.
Because if you want to go down that road, couldn't you say the allies treated Germany the way they did after WWI because of what Germany did?
It's a fruitless road. People nor nations should be excused for their bad choices. If you choose to start a war that kills millions, you get to own it. You can't use the 8-year old's tactic of trying to blame someone else for the bad choice.
No one made Germany do what she did but Germany.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
WW2 was caused-entirely-by the Allies using half-measures against Germany after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles was harsh enough that everyone resented it, but not harsh enough to keep them cowed. Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.
For example, no one forces someone to beat their children, or their spouse, regardless the protestations of "so an so made me do it."
No one forces their spouse to cheat on them, no matter how many want to blame the victim for the cheaters behavior.
No one forces the rapist to rape his victim, no matter how many say she was asking for it because of what she wore.
And no one forced Germany to go to war with her neighbors and implement their solution to "The Jewish Problem" no matter how many want to blame the allies for their treatment of Germany after WWI.
Because if you want to go down that road, couldn't you say the allies treated Germany the way they did after WWI because of what Germany did?
It's a fruitless road. People nor nations should be excused for their bad choices. If you choose to start a war that kills millions, you get to own it. You can't use the 8-year old's tactic of trying to blame someone else for the bad choice.
No one made Germany do what she did but Germany.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
WW2 was caused-entirely-by the Allies using half-measures against Germany after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles was harsh enough that everyone resented it, but not harsh enough to keep them cowed. Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.
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Originally Posted By: InfmousCornholio
Hasn't it been decided that Germany probably would have won WW2 if Hitler had not ordered an invasion of Russia? (Dividing his manpower against the massive Soviet army is what is believed to have been the start of his downfall.)
Absolutely not. Allied victory was a foregone conclusion...it might have required reducing half of Germany to radioactive glass, but it would have happened.
Hasn't it been decided that Germany probably would have won WW2 if Hitler had not ordered an invasion of Russia? (Dividing his manpower against the massive Soviet army is what is believed to have been the start of his downfall.)
Absolutely not. Allied victory was a foregone conclusion...it might have required reducing half of Germany to radioactive glass, but it would have happened.
What does this discussion have to do with a lost train?
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!
Yes. Anybody not up with the program could and would dissappear, or get murdered by the SA, even before the war. At the very least you risked loosing all your belongings, but your life was likely aswell.
So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!
Yes. Anybody not up with the program could and would dissappear, or get murdered by the SA, even before the war. At the very least you risked loosing all your belongings, but your life was likely aswell.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The german people were victims even before the war, but to their own elected (or not) leaders. What therest of europe got during the war was equal to what the germans got since the early 30s
So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!
Yes, the Germans were the victim before and after WW2. What's next? The concentration camps never happened? There were no plans for world domination and extermination of the "lesser" races? It was all just a big misunderstanding? W T F indeed!
A distinction needs to be made between Nazis and Germans. Germans fell victim to Nazis, as did later the rest of europe. The germans maybe didn't realise what was happening though, I'm not saying they're without blame but EVERYTHING that happened to other people in Europe could happen to Germans aswell if they were considered traitors to the cause.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The german people were victims even before the war, but to their own elected (or not) leaders. What therest of europe got during the war was equal to what the germans got since the early 30s
So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!
Yes, the Germans were the victim before and after WW2. What's next? The concentration camps never happened? There were no plans for world domination and extermination of the "lesser" races? It was all just a big misunderstanding? W T F indeed!
A distinction needs to be made between Nazis and Germans. Germans fell victim to Nazis, as did later the rest of europe. The germans maybe didn't realise what was happening though, I'm not saying they're without blame but EVERYTHING that happened to other people in Europe could happen to Germans aswell if they were considered traitors to the cause.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The german people were victims even before the war, but to their own elected (or not) leaders. What therest of europe got during the war was equal to what the germans got since the early 30s
So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!
Yes, the Germans were the victim before and after WW2. What's next? The concentration camps never happened? There were no plans for world domination and extermination of the "lesser" races? It was all just a big misunderstanding? W T F indeed!
A distinction needs to be made between Nazis and Germans. Germans fell victim to Nazis, as did later the rest of europe. The germans maybe didn't realise what was happening though, I'm not saying they're without blame but EVERYTHING that happened to other people in Europe could happen to Germans aswell if they were considered traitors to the cause.
Many people forget that.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The german people were victims even before the war, but to their own elected (or not) leaders. What therest of europe got during the war was equal to what the germans got since the early 30s
So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!
Yes, the Germans were the victim before and after WW2. What's next? The concentration camps never happened? There were no plans for world domination and extermination of the "lesser" races? It was all just a big misunderstanding? W T F indeed!
A distinction needs to be made between Nazis and Germans. Germans fell victim to Nazis, as did later the rest of europe. The germans maybe didn't realise what was happening though, I'm not saying they're without blame but EVERYTHING that happened to other people in Europe could happen to Germans aswell if they were considered traitors to the cause.
Many people forget that.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Japan really got off easy.
Yes, yes they did. Their atrocities rivalled those committed by the Germans, yet the Chinese do not make the same noise about it as those groups that were slaughtered by the Nazi's. There is no "Chin's List", no "boy in the Bamboo pajamas". There are no movies about events like Nanking (that I am aware of).
Japan really got off easy.
Yes, yes they did. Their atrocities rivalled those committed by the Germans, yet the Chinese do not make the same noise about it as those groups that were slaughtered by the Nazi's. There is no "Chin's List", no "boy in the Bamboo pajamas". There are no movies about events like Nanking (that I am aware of).
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I have no idea but I guess JarAxle's Mercedes must have been breaking down quite a lot! What else would explain all of his choicest ranting?
No, no... The Volkswagen, or "People's Car" (a German NAZI invention, remember) is the one with all the failures. Mercedes just rust a lot up until what seems like the 90s.
Alles muss in Deutschland bei 100 Meilen pro Stunde oder schneller bewegen. ("Everything in Germany must move at 100MPH or faster." - Adolf Hitler.
And. Autobahn = Hitler's Road.
I have no idea but I guess JarAxle's Mercedes must have been breaking down quite a lot! What else would explain all of his choicest ranting?
No, no... The Volkswagen, or "People's Car" (a German NAZI invention, remember) is the one with all the failures. Mercedes just rust a lot up until what seems like the 90s.
Alles muss in Deutschland bei 100 Meilen pro Stunde oder schneller bewegen. ("Everything in Germany must move at 100MPH or faster." - Adolf Hitler.
And. Autobahn = Hitler's Road.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
What does this discussion have to do with a lost train?
The train was a Nazi train. Directly related, also about how train could have vanished.
I don't see the irrelevance.
What does this discussion have to do with a lost train?
The train was a Nazi train. Directly related, also about how train could have vanished.
I don't see the irrelevance.
Just like I'm not to blame with what has happened here for the last 6 1/2 years?
The train, the train folks, it's all about the train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The train, the train folks, it's all about the train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted By: InfmousCornholio
Originally Posted By: jcwit
What does this discussion have to do with a lost train?
The train was a Nazi train. Directly related, also about how train could have vanished.
I don't see the irrelevance.
Ya, just like my dad was partly responsible for the bombs dropped on Japan because he paid taxes.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
What does this discussion have to do with a lost train?
The train was a Nazi train. Directly related, also about how train could have vanished.
I don't see the irrelevance.
Ya, just like my dad was partly responsible for the bombs dropped on Japan because he paid taxes.
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
A distinction needs to be made between Nazis and Germans. Germans fell victim to Nazis, as did later the rest of europe. The germans maybe didn't realise what was happening though, I'm not saying they're without blame but EVERYTHING that happened to other people in Europe could happen to Germans aswell if they were considered traitors to the cause.
Many people forget that.
Nazi was a party, Germans are the people, that's what you should remember. German people, vast majority of them belonging to the Nazi party are responsible for the WW2 crimes.
Saying that it was Nazis, NOT Germans is a clear attempt at distorting the truth and shifting the blame away from Germans.
Yes, there were German Nationals that opposed Nazi party. The first concentration camps were built for them as Hitler knew they had to be dealt with swiftly. These are now call detention camps btw. But they were outnumbered and quickly overwhelmed.
Now, I'm not saying that German people are bad as individuals. Quite the opposite. But their aspirations are always high and they have a high view of themselves when compared to other nations. That is why they were fairly easily swayed by Hitler and the master race ideology. In their defence, Hitler's propaganda never mentioned concentration camps and what was happening in them. Heck even the allies did not believe the reports from Polish intelligence about them.
They were also sheltered from a lot of what was going on on the war fronts and how the occupied countries were treated. For them it was like us now hearing about Iraq or Afganistan.
All of that, however, does not absolve them of the responsibility and the shame of their nation's past. Just like history will eventually judge US for the Middle East. Good or bad, it will not be this administration or that, it will be the American people and their nation.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
A distinction needs to be made between Nazis and Germans. Germans fell victim to Nazis, as did later the rest of europe. The germans maybe didn't realise what was happening though, I'm not saying they're without blame but EVERYTHING that happened to other people in Europe could happen to Germans aswell if they were considered traitors to the cause.
Many people forget that.
Nazi was a party, Germans are the people, that's what you should remember. German people, vast majority of them belonging to the Nazi party are responsible for the WW2 crimes.
Saying that it was Nazis, NOT Germans is a clear attempt at distorting the truth and shifting the blame away from Germans.
Yes, there were German Nationals that opposed Nazi party. The first concentration camps were built for them as Hitler knew they had to be dealt with swiftly. These are now call detention camps btw. But they were outnumbered and quickly overwhelmed.
Now, I'm not saying that German people are bad as individuals. Quite the opposite. But their aspirations are always high and they have a high view of themselves when compared to other nations. That is why they were fairly easily swayed by Hitler and the master race ideology. In their defence, Hitler's propaganda never mentioned concentration camps and what was happening in them. Heck even the allies did not believe the reports from Polish intelligence about them.
They were also sheltered from a lot of what was going on on the war fronts and how the occupied countries were treated. For them it was like us now hearing about Iraq or Afganistan.
All of that, however, does not absolve them of the responsibility and the shame of their nation's past. Just like history will eventually judge US for the Middle East. Good or bad, it will not be this administration or that, it will be the American people and their nation.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Well, he was but at that point in time there wasn't any other alternative. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Hitler himself ordered all able bodies, children, women and elderly alike to defend their homeland when push came to shove.
I'm neither apologizing for him nor condemning him. I'm just pointing it out. If anyone could skew population stats, it would be Stalin.
Well, he was but at that point in time there wasn't any other alternative. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Hitler himself ordered all able bodies, children, women and elderly alike to defend their homeland when push came to shove.
I'm neither apologizing for him nor condemning him. I'm just pointing it out. If anyone could skew population stats, it would be Stalin.
Here is Luftwafe's practice run just before the invasion of Poland.
Quote:
The Bombing of Frampol occurred during the German invasion of Poland in 1939. On 13 September, the town of Frampol, with a population of 4,000, was bombed by the German Luftwaffe as a practice run for future missions. Over 60%[1] to 90%[2] of the town's infrastructure was completely destroyed; only two streets remained untouched, including some houses on the outskirts.[3] Frampol was destroyed by bombers of Luftwaffe's 8th Air Corps, under General Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen. According to Polish historians Pawel Puzio and Ryszard Jasinski, no units of the Polish army were stationed in Frampol, and the town did not have any military facilities
Quote:
The Bombing of Frampol occurred during the German invasion of Poland in 1939. On 13 September, the town of Frampol, with a population of 4,000, was bombed by the German Luftwaffe as a practice run for future missions. Over 60%[1] to 90%[2] of the town's infrastructure was completely destroyed; only two streets remained untouched, including some houses on the outskirts.[3] Frampol was destroyed by bombers of Luftwaffe's 8th Air Corps, under General Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen. According to Polish historians Pawel Puzio and Ryszard Jasinski, no units of the Polish army were stationed in Frampol, and the town did not have any military facilities
Pfff..you wanna see something spectacular?
Look what the allies did to Dresden and guess what...no military installation or production facilities either:
Remember Monte Cassino? Stop with the double standards FFS!
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Here is Luftwafe's practice run just before the invasion of Poland.
Quote:
The Bombing of Frampol occurred during the German invasion of Poland in 1939. On 13 September, the town of Frampol, with a population of 4,000, was bombed by the German Luftwaffe as a practice run for future missions. Over 60%[1] to 90%[2] of the town's infrastructure was completely destroyed; only two streets remained untouched, including some houses on the outskirts.[3] Frampol was destroyed by bombers of Luftwaffe's 8th Air Corps, under General Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen. According to Polish historians Pawel Puzio and Ryszard Jasinski, no units of the Polish army were stationed in Frampol, and the town did not have any military facilities
Look what the allies did to Dresden and guess what...no military installation or production facilities either:
Remember Monte Cassino? Stop with the double standards FFS!
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Here is Luftwafe's practice run just before the invasion of Poland.
Quote:
The Bombing of Frampol occurred during the German invasion of Poland in 1939. On 13 September, the town of Frampol, with a population of 4,000, was bombed by the German Luftwaffe as a practice run for future missions. Over 60%[1] to 90%[2] of the town's infrastructure was completely destroyed; only two streets remained untouched, including some houses on the outskirts.[3] Frampol was destroyed by bombers of Luftwaffe's 8th Air Corps, under General Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen. According to Polish historians Pawel Puzio and Ryszard Jasinski, no units of the Polish army were stationed in Frampol, and the town did not have any military facilities
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