Gear lube, Marine verses Auto versions

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philipp10

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I ran a search here but could not find any information on the differences between marine and auto gear lube (90 wt). I have some specific questions looking for answers:

1. Marine claims it can better handle water with emulsifiers. What specifically are "emulsifiers"? Chemical names please.
2. Why are there no specifications for marine gear lube that would point to a test method (ASTM, SAE etc.) As far as I know, there is no specific test or specs.

I am looking for hard facts, not the usual ancedotal stuff like "well I used XX brand of gear lube in my boat for years with no issues". What do you know?
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
I ran a search here but could not find any information on the differences between marine and auto gear lube (90 wt). I have some specific questions looking for answers:

1. Marine claims it can better handle water with emulsifiers. What specifically are "emulsifiers"? Chemical names please.
2. Why are there no specifications for marine gear lube that would point to a test method (ASTM, SAE etc.) As far as I know, there is no specific test or specs.

I am looking for hard facts, not the usual ancedotal stuff like "well I used XX brand of gear lube in my boat for years with no issues". What do you know?


Well SAE is society of automotive engineers. They may not have too much interest in boats.
 
The marine gear lube is specified by various outboard/outdrive manufacturers to be 75W90 or 80W90 which of course there are SAE tests for.

As for how well it deals with water, I have no clue whether there is a test, I would assume Mercruiser can run their own testing as they develop gear lubes.

But in reality, a Mercruiser Alpha One takes about 33 oz of gear oil. Mercruiser gear lube is less than $10 a quart at Walmart. Other brands might be $8. Given that it takes roughly one quart once a year I am not sure why a Mercruiser owner would not buy Mercruiser gear lube and move on to other things in life.
 
I asked a Mercury factory rep at a boat show if there was any difference. He said no, but I didn't hear it from him...
 
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Originally Posted By: Donald
The marine gear lube is specified by various outboard/outdrive manufacturers to be 75W90 or 80W90 which of course there are SAE tests for.

As for how well it deals with water, I have no clue whether there is a test, I would assume Mercruiser can run their own testing as they develop gear lubes.

But in reality, a Mercruiser Alpha One takes about 33 oz of gear oil. Mercruiser gear lube is less than $10 a quart at Walmart. Other brands might be $8. Given that it takes roughly one quart once a year I am not sure why a Mercruiser owner would not buy Mercruiser gear lube and move on to other things in life.


Donald, I agree, I have plenty of money to pay the few extra bucks. But that is not the point of my post. It just seems if your going to claim you can handle more water in a marine vs auto gear lube, then there ought to be a test OR specification to prove that. Why with all the searching all over the web, I find NOTHING!!!!
 
my volvo 290 tales 30 wt... actually, it says, "same as engine"and my manual says 10w40 for engine. but i use 15w40 in both...

my alpha 1 has the 8090 stuff in it...

oh, and we chased a leak in the volvo drive for years and tons of trips out... the oil was milky sometimes when wed take the boat out for the day.

and we left the milky stuff on the drive for a really long time last winter while replacing all bellows and seals. no rust has developed in the drive................................
 
Did you not read page 2 of:

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2044.pdf ?

It gives the ASTM tests and an explanation.

Emulsibility additives are only one aspect of a Marine Gear Oil.

Quote:
Marine gear oils operate in environments subject to water
contamination. The chart demonstrates the ability of AMSOIL
Synthetic Marine Gear Lube to maintain designed qualities
such as extreme-pressure/anti-wear performance and resistance
to foaming, even when subjected to 10 percent water
contamination.

The Falex Procedure is a measurement of a gear lube’s
extreme-pressure and anti-wear properties. A high value in the
Falex Extreme-Pressure Test relates to extra extreme-pressure
protection. AMSOIL Synthetic Marine Gear Lube provides
extreme-pressure protection and is highly resistant to the effects
of water contamination.

The presence of foam in a lubricant disrupts oil film and
promotes wear. Water contamination can increase the likelihood
of foaming. Industry standard testing demonstrates zero foam
in both new and water-contaminated AMSOIL Synthetic Marine
Gear Lube.
 
Thats corporate marketing, and Amsoil is very good at it. They don't compare regular gear oil with 10% water in it.... Probably gets the same result. I can tell you that Boat dealers and Marinas use automotive gear oil all day long and they are very comfortable with doing so.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Did you not read page 2 of:

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2044.pdf ?

It gives the ASTM tests and an explanation.

Emulsibility additives are only one aspect of a Marine Gear Oil.

Quote:
Marine gear oils operate in environments subject to water
contamination. The chart demonstrates the ability of AMSOIL
Synthetic Marine Gear Lube to maintain designed qualities
such as extreme-pressure/anti-wear performance and resistance
to foaming, even when subjected to 10 percent water
contamination.

The Falex Procedure is a measurement of a gear lube’s
extreme-pressure and anti-wear properties. A high value in the
Falex Extreme-Pressure Test relates to extra extreme-pressure
protection. AMSOIL Synthetic Marine Gear Lube provides
extreme-pressure protection and is highly resistant to the effects
of water contamination.

The presence of foam in a lubricant disrupts oil film and
promotes wear. Water contamination can increase the likelihood
of foaming. Industry standard testing demonstrates zero foam
in both new and water-contaminated AMSOIL Synthetic Marine
Gear Lube.


Nothing in that Amsoil page specifically references what a marine grade would do compared to a auto grade as far as rust prevention etc. or how irt would protect with 10% water. Notice they did not reference a "test standard". Without a test standard, pretty much any claim can be made witout the proof.
 
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My take on this is, while the addition of emulsifiers may be helpful for marine grade oil, there is no published proof that I can find. I have been a mechanical engineer for over 30 years and let me just say this: If a company is going to make a claim, generally. there is a test we would use to test against. Making a claim without the test makes me very suspicious that there is no standardized test. And without a standard, any claim made is just B$.

I don't like lawyers but the marine industry is skirting the law here with un-substaniated claims.
 
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The discussion is NOT about Amsoil Marine Gear Lube, that was ued as an example of ASTM tests.

Quote:
there is no published proof that I can find.


No published proof of "what" specifically?

I think you are missing the point and making a mountain out of a Molehill.

As an engineer you should be aware of ASTM and SAE tests and protocols.

ASTM tests ARE valid tests for comparing non-Marine gear lubes with Marine specific gear lubes.

Also see a rather comprehensive write up here:

Outdrive gear oil tests
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The discussion is NOT about Amsoil Marine Gear Lube, that was ued as an example of ASTM tests.

Quote:
there is no published proof that I can find.


No published proof of "what" specifically?

I think you are missing the point and making a mountain out of a Molehill.

As an engineer you should be aware of ASTM and SAE tests and protocols.

ASTM tests ARE valid tests for comparing non-Marine gear lubes with Marine specific gear lubes.

Also see a rather comprehensive write up here:

Outdrive gear oil tests


Since I am discussing "marine" vs "auto", I was referring to the claims of marine being so much better for drives as far as water intrusion. Your link is the first that at least refers to a test of water separation. Its a good start however, when I go to purchase Mercury Marine lube, they do not reference any test or spec they make. Anyone can make baseless claims, meeting a standard would be a big step forward.

BTW: I was not making a mountain out of a molehill. All I ask for is that if a mfg makes a claim, then back it up with data. Isn't that what BITOG is all about, or is it just a bunch of guys sitting around telling me to "use with confidence"...
 
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The data is in the form of the ASTM tests they perform, whether they be Mercury Marine Lube, or Amsoil Marine Lube, or Pennzoil Marine Gear Lube, or Castrol, Kluber, or whomever.

If the tests show the same or near same level of protection with 10% water and without, then that is proof of protection with moisture intrusion.

Marine Gear lubricants are essentially automotive gear lube formulations with additional emulsification chemistry, additional foam inhibitors, and additional rust inhibitors.
 
Quote:
Anyone can make baseless claims, meeting a standard would be a big step forward.


The ASTM test methods or the CEC series of tests ARE the standards for the performance of Marine Gear Lubes subjected to moisture or water intrusion.
 
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All the data says is how long a given lube will hold water in suspension, and we are talking like 30 minutes after agitation as typical tests. So again, this data proves little at to real life usage. If I use my boat every weekend, letting it sit all week long, the water is going to separate. Secondly, none of the data shows what will happen if it does in fact separate at a faster rate. My point being, will the marine lube protect my bearings from forming rust and failing sooner? And if so, how much better are we talking about. Sure they can add emulsifiers and make baseless claims but if the result is my drive fails 1% less often, is it worth it?

Money talks, B$ walks....
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Anyone can make baseless claims, meeting a standard would be a big step forward.


The ASTM test methods or the CEC series of tests ARE the standards for the performance of Marine Gear Lubes subjected to moisture or water intrusion.


If you read them closely, they don't relate to real life examples. They need to run tests proving a drive and its components (bearings, gears etc) failed X % less often or some such type of test.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Anyone can make baseless claims, meeting a standard would be a big step forward.


The ASTM test methods or the CEC series of tests ARE the standards for the performance of Marine Gear Lubes subjected to moisture or water intrusion.


If you read them closely, they don't relate to real life examples. They need to run tests proving a drive and its components (bearings, gears etc) failed X % less often or some such type of test.


Undoubtedly, you are not a Mechanical Engineer as your stated expectations are not realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ0yD-9CDwI


No, it is not the responsibility of the fluid manufacturer to test his fluid in every single drive across the globe and report-out his findings.

It is the manf. responsibility to specify a fluid, or have one formulated for him, and then test it for longevity and protection in his machine.

You also need to study some of the ASTM and CEC tests to see what they really do.

Lab Testing via ASTM or CEC tests and protocols accelerate non-idealistic conditions that display a measure of correlation with real-world conditions under those test regimes.

Recommend you go to Page 31 of:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/21/1/Question_of_the_Day

and read backward at the myriad of various CEC and ASTM tests to get a sense of what tests do.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Anyone can make baseless claims, meeting a standard would be a big step forward.


The ASTM test methods or the CEC series of tests ARE the standards for the performance of Marine Gear Lubes subjected to moisture or water intrusion.


If you read them closely, they don't relate to real life examples. They need to run tests proving a drive and its components (bearings, gears etc) failed X % less often or some such type of test.


Undoubtedly, you are not a Mechanical Engineer as your stated expectations are not realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ0yD-9CDwI


No, it is not the responsibility of the fluid manufacturer to test his fluid in every single drive across the globe and report-out his findings.

It is the manf. responsibility to specify a fluid, or have one formulated for him, and then test it for longevity and protection in his machine.

You also need to study some of the ASTM and CEC tests to see what they really do.

Lab Testing via ASTM or CEC tests and protocols accelerate non-idealistic conditions that display a measure of correlation with real-world conditions under those test regimes.

Recommend you go to Page 31 of:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/21/1/Question_of_the_Day

and read backward at the myriad of various CEC and ASTM tests to get a sense of what tests do.


I agree, its not the mfg of the lube that could test all the world's drives. However, when Mercury Marine brands their lube with their name, isn't that when they should be publishing tests of their lube in their drives under real world conditions? I can, and will go thru all the tests you listed, but it won't prove to me that using a marine lube will make my boat last if I develop a leak. Only a drive specific test can do that.

BTW, I am an ME. But you must realize, we specialize. I am mainly a ME design guy but my products are hand held instruments that measure air pollution. Its a far cry from a lubrication engineer...lol
 
Originally Posted By: philip10
...However, when Mercury Marine brands their lube with their name, isn't that when they should be publishing tests of their lube in their drives under real world conditions?...


I suspect Mercury Marine has run a number of extensive tests with the lube that bears their logo.

I can only suggest you contact Mercury Marine and see if they will release those test results.

Test results must be interpreted in the context (primary purpose) in which they were executed.

In many cases, internal OEM tests are run for developmental purposes and may contain proprietary data that they may choose not to release.

Good luck.
cool.gif
 
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