100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology
- Thread starter ron in sc
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Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
I'm running 300V Factory Line 4T 10W40 in my Suzuki V-Strom
and seems to run 15° cooler than other oils due to better heat transfer.
So your Suzuki doesnt have thermostat build in?
I'm running 300V Factory Line 4T 10W40 in my Suzuki V-Strom
and seems to run 15° cooler than other oils due to better heat transfer.
So your Suzuki doesnt have thermostat build in?
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
300V has seen steep price increases over the past couple years. It's nearly double Redline now. The Motul 8100 Xmax can be had in the high $8 range.
Dang, where? I'm paying over $11 a quart for it at summit racing.
--Matt
300V has seen steep price increases over the past couple years. It's nearly double Redline now. The Motul 8100 Xmax can be had in the high $8 range.
Dang, where? I'm paying over $11 a quart for it at summit racing.
--Matt
Hmmm Something strange on this. The above is what I paid maybe two months ago. I went to Amazon after I wrote the above to check current prices. Amazon has a warning up on the product for unspecific reasons and says Amazon is not selling it at the present time until issue is resolved. Weird.
Originally Posted By: benjy
in the USA may as well use Redline, prolly a bit less costly also. both excellent top of line oils. only 3,000 miles for hard street use or 5,000 for easy use is the recommendation, not a long change oil but for the most protection.
300v used to have very high starting TBNs back in the diester formulation days, so it could be run for a longer OCI then.
Now with the 300V's TBN reduction across the board for the Ester Core versions, yes, I would not go too long on OCIs.
I run my Red Line blends out to 8K+ miles, despite 'hard use'.
in the USA may as well use Redline, prolly a bit less costly also. both excellent top of line oils. only 3,000 miles for hard street use or 5,000 for easy use is the recommendation, not a long change oil but for the most protection.
300v used to have very high starting TBNs back in the diester formulation days, so it could be run for a longer OCI then.
Now with the 300V's TBN reduction across the board for the Ester Core versions, yes, I would not go too long on OCIs.
I run my Red Line blends out to 8K+ miles, despite 'hard use'.
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
I'm running 300V Factory Line 4T 10W40 in my Suzuki V-Strom and seems to run 15° cooler than other oils due to better heat transfer.
So your Suzuki doesnt have thermostat built in?
Of course it has a thermostat. But when ambient temps go above 95°F (35°C) I believe the thermostat stays open on long runs - and subsequently the sump oil temp will climb into the 220 - 230°F range on M1 Racing 10W40 4T, but only 205 - 215°F range on the Motul 300V double ester 10W40 4T. I attribute it to better heat transfer, probably a result of the polar ester molecules which are attracted to coat any and all surfaces it can come into contact with. That includes the exhaust valve stems, where many lesser grades of oil seem to exhibit varying degrees of "pyrophobia."
Because of similar base oil composition, Motul 300V may have no advantage over other ester 4T oils - Silkolene Pro, Redline, Bel Ray EXS, and Maxima Ultra. I have not tried them so it's not fair for me to comment.
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
I'm running 300V Factory Line 4T 10W40 in my Suzuki V-Strom and seems to run 15° cooler than other oils due to better heat transfer.
So your Suzuki doesnt have thermostat built in?
Of course it has a thermostat. But when ambient temps go above 95°F (35°C) I believe the thermostat stays open on long runs - and subsequently the sump oil temp will climb into the 220 - 230°F range on M1 Racing 10W40 4T, but only 205 - 215°F range on the Motul 300V double ester 10W40 4T. I attribute it to better heat transfer, probably a result of the polar ester molecules which are attracted to coat any and all surfaces it can come into contact with. That includes the exhaust valve stems, where many lesser grades of oil seem to exhibit varying degrees of "pyrophobia."
Because of similar base oil composition, Motul 300V may have no advantage over other ester 4T oils - Silkolene Pro, Redline, Bel Ray EXS, and Maxima Ultra. I have not tried them so it's not fair for me to comment.
Originally Posted By: ron in sc
What does 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology mean in layman's terms?
It means you are getting into an area that you don't understand.
Warren Buffet says if you don't understand it; don't invest in it.
It does not matter the OEMs took the mystery out of it by specifying a recommended oil grade usually with an OEM approval.
What does 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology mean in layman's terms?
It means you are getting into an area that you don't understand.
Warren Buffet says if you don't understand it; don't invest in it.
It does not matter the OEMs took the mystery out of it by specifying a recommended oil grade usually with an OEM approval.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
Of course it has a thermostat. But when ambient temps go above 95°F (35°C) I believe the thermostat stays open on long runs - and subsequently the sump oil temp will climb into the 220 - 230°F range on M1 Racing 10W40 4T, but only 205 - 215°F range on the Motul 300V double ester 10W40 4T. I attribute it to better heat transfer, probably a result of the polar ester molecules which are attracted to coat any and all surfaces it can come into contact with. That includes the exhaust valve stems, where many lesser grades of oil seem to exhibit varying degrees of "pyrophobia."
The heat (even more so at high load) is still being produced, so if it isn't rejected into the coolant and then to the atmosphere via the radiator, where is it being lost? Please don't say the oil pan.
In your scenario your oil must be about boiling at that point, which I'm going to guess it isn't.
Of course it has a thermostat. But when ambient temps go above 95°F (35°C) I believe the thermostat stays open on long runs - and subsequently the sump oil temp will climb into the 220 - 230°F range on M1 Racing 10W40 4T, but only 205 - 215°F range on the Motul 300V double ester 10W40 4T. I attribute it to better heat transfer, probably a result of the polar ester molecules which are attracted to coat any and all surfaces it can come into contact with. That includes the exhaust valve stems, where many lesser grades of oil seem to exhibit varying degrees of "pyrophobia."
The heat (even more so at high load) is still being produced, so if it isn't rejected into the coolant and then to the atmosphere via the radiator, where is it being lost? Please don't say the oil pan.
In your scenario your oil must be about boiling at that point, which I'm going to guess it isn't.
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: ron in sc
What does 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology mean in layman's terms?
It means you are getting into an area that you don't understand.
Warren Buffet says if you don't understand it; don't invest in it.
I see, well since you took the time to criticize the poster for asking a reasonable question, why don't you also take the time and answer it?
Originally Posted By: ron in sc
What does 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology mean in layman's terms?
It means you are getting into an area that you don't understand.
Warren Buffet says if you don't understand it; don't invest in it.
I see, well since you took the time to criticize the poster for asking a reasonable question, why don't you also take the time and answer it?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
Of course it has a thermostat. But when ambient temps go above 95°F (35°C) I believe the thermostat stays open on long runs - and subsequently the sump oil temp will climb into the 220 - 230°F range on M1 Racing 10W40 4T, but only 205 - 215°F range on the Motul 300V double ester 10W40 4T. I attribute it to better heat transfer, probably a result of the polar ester molecules which are attracted to coat any and all surfaces it can come into contact with. That includes the exhaust valve stems, where many lesser grades of oil seem to exhibit varying degrees of "pyrophobia."
The heat (even more so at high load) is still being produced, so if it isn't rejected into the coolant and then to the atmosphere via the radiator, where is it being lost? Please don't say the oil pan.
In your scenario your oil must be about boiling at that point, which I'm going to guess it isn't.
Newsflash!
Different materials can adsorb different amounts of calories for a 1 degree temp rise.
The heat can still be in the oil which didn't heat as much as the other did. Same thing happens with coolant containing more or less water
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
Of course it has a thermostat. But when ambient temps go above 95°F (35°C) I believe the thermostat stays open on long runs - and subsequently the sump oil temp will climb into the 220 - 230°F range on M1 Racing 10W40 4T, but only 205 - 215°F range on the Motul 300V double ester 10W40 4T. I attribute it to better heat transfer, probably a result of the polar ester molecules which are attracted to coat any and all surfaces it can come into contact with. That includes the exhaust valve stems, where many lesser grades of oil seem to exhibit varying degrees of "pyrophobia."
The heat (even more so at high load) is still being produced, so if it isn't rejected into the coolant and then to the atmosphere via the radiator, where is it being lost? Please don't say the oil pan.
In your scenario your oil must be about boiling at that point, which I'm going to guess it isn't.
Newsflash!
Different materials can adsorb different amounts of calories for a 1 degree temp rise.
The heat can still be in the oil which didn't heat as much as the other did. Same thing happens with coolant containing more or less water
Newsflash? OK, sure.
So if the heat isn't being absorbed into either the coolant nor the oil then it's staying in the engine? Then I will modify my statement to say the block/head is about melting at that point, rather than the oil boiling. And I do understand heat capacity differences, but you still have to reject it somewhere.
Calories are calories, and all must be rejected. You don't have unlimited options in an ICE.
So if the heat isn't being absorbed into either the coolant nor the oil then it's staying in the engine? Then I will modify my statement to say the block/head is about melting at that point, rather than the oil boiling. And I do understand heat capacity differences, but you still have to reject it somewhere.
Calories are calories, and all must be rejected. You don't have unlimited options in an ICE.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Newsflash? OK, sure.
So if the heat isn't being absorbed into either the coolant nor the oil then it's staying in the engine? Then I will modify my statement to say the block/head is about melting at that point, rather than the oil boiling. And I do understand heat capacity differences, but you still have to reject it somewhere.
Calories are calories, and all must be rejected. You don't have unlimited options in an ICE.
I'm sure you know about heat capacity differences, but from your answer it seems you didn't think it through. The actual oil temp doesn't say anything about the engine parts it comes in contact with. The oil could be accepting and rejecting more, less or an equal amount of heat than the oil before did. Only difference is some oils heat up less to contain the same amount of heat
Have you seen this thread? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3810208/1/Oil_Temp_difference
That topic doesn't touch on Esters, but it seems PAO cools a lot better than mineral. The engine in the above example would run with cooler PAO oil vs mineral. PAO still has to reject the heat in the same places as the mineral oil, but while rejecting the same amount as before it would lose less temperature.
Newsflash? OK, sure.
So if the heat isn't being absorbed into either the coolant nor the oil then it's staying in the engine? Then I will modify my statement to say the block/head is about melting at that point, rather than the oil boiling. And I do understand heat capacity differences, but you still have to reject it somewhere.
Calories are calories, and all must be rejected. You don't have unlimited options in an ICE.
I'm sure you know about heat capacity differences, but from your answer it seems you didn't think it through. The actual oil temp doesn't say anything about the engine parts it comes in contact with. The oil could be accepting and rejecting more, less or an equal amount of heat than the oil before did. Only difference is some oils heat up less to contain the same amount of heat
Have you seen this thread? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3810208/1/Oil_Temp_difference
That topic doesn't touch on Esters, but it seems PAO cools a lot better than mineral. The engine in the above example would run with cooler PAO oil vs mineral. PAO still has to reject the heat in the same places as the mineral oil, but while rejecting the same amount as before it would lose less temperature.
Yeah I saw that thread, you have to agree it is pretty uncontrolled and I really don't think it proves much of anything.
So if the heat of combustion is being more absorbed by the oil, where is it being rejected to the environment?
So if the heat of combustion is being more absorbed by the oil, where is it being rejected to the environment?
The same place where the other oil shed it's heat, either in the sump, or in an oil cooler, or towards the walls of the block.
Now, this is all theoretical and in case of the motorcycle mentioned above I'm sure there might be a measurement error involved aswell. But more people have mentioned cooler running with group IV and V synthetics so there could be something there. I'm sure Molakule didn't pick the heat conduction coefficients out of thin air.
Now, this is all theoretical and in case of the motorcycle mentioned above I'm sure there might be a measurement error involved aswell. But more people have mentioned cooler running with group IV and V synthetics so there could be something there. I'm sure Molakule didn't pick the heat conduction coefficients out of thin air.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So if the heat of combustion is being more absorbed by the oil, where is it being rejected to the environment?
Through the oil sump and oil cooler.
Besides the heat capacity of an oil there is another property described as fluid thermal conductivity. For a given flow regime (level of turbulence, ie. Reynold's number) some fluids convect heat from the core of the flow to the boundary more or less effectively than others, and can thus accomplish the same amount of heat transfer with a larger or smaller heat exchanger, or an increased or decreased flow rate. I would posit that heat exchange properties for bases used in motor oils, esters > PAO > mineral oil. I do not have numeric values that quantify the actual rates, but I believe some difference exists.
In the water-cooled motorcycle instance, the exterior of the crank case would be the same temperature when transfering the same amount of heat per unit of time to the environment, comparing an ester to a PAO to a mineral oil. However, the ester motor oil in the sump would have a more even temperature distribution from the core of the fluid to the boundary where it contacts the crankcase case because it is a more thermally conductive fluid. A mineral oil would have more temperature delta between the core of the oil and the surrounding crank case because it is a less thermally conductive fluid. The same theory applies to locations where oil is absorbing heat energy in an internal combustion engine.
I believe that is the main mechanism that accounts for how the temperature difference phenomenon occurs, but I would like to listen to your argument for why there can be no difference.
So if the heat of combustion is being more absorbed by the oil, where is it being rejected to the environment?
Through the oil sump and oil cooler.
Besides the heat capacity of an oil there is another property described as fluid thermal conductivity. For a given flow regime (level of turbulence, ie. Reynold's number) some fluids convect heat from the core of the flow to the boundary more or less effectively than others, and can thus accomplish the same amount of heat transfer with a larger or smaller heat exchanger, or an increased or decreased flow rate. I would posit that heat exchange properties for bases used in motor oils, esters > PAO > mineral oil. I do not have numeric values that quantify the actual rates, but I believe some difference exists.
In the water-cooled motorcycle instance, the exterior of the crank case would be the same temperature when transfering the same amount of heat per unit of time to the environment, comparing an ester to a PAO to a mineral oil. However, the ester motor oil in the sump would have a more even temperature distribution from the core of the fluid to the boundary where it contacts the crankcase case because it is a more thermally conductive fluid. A mineral oil would have more temperature delta between the core of the oil and the surrounding crank case because it is a less thermally conductive fluid. The same theory applies to locations where oil is absorbing heat energy in an internal combustion engine.
I believe that is the main mechanism that accounts for how the temperature difference phenomenon occurs, but I would like to listen to your argument for why there can be no difference.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: ron in sc
What does 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology mean in layman's terms?
It means you are getting into an area that you don't understand.
Warren Buffet says if you don't understand it; don't invest in it.
I see, well since you took the time to criticize the poster for asking a reasonable question, why don't you also take the time and answer it?
I did not criticize him. I did answer it and you did not understand.
I will explain for you again "don't worry about trying to figure out the 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology" just use your OEM manual and let the OEM work it out for you.
Unless you like science and have time to burn. Internet engineers will attack what I have said, more important things to in life to spend your time on IMO.
I wasted much of my time looking into stuff like that now I have given up on it as too much is constantly changing and will take the easy road OEM rules.
All the best BITOG.
Sayoonara
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: ron in sc
What does 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology mean in layman's terms?
It means you are getting into an area that you don't understand.
Warren Buffet says if you don't understand it; don't invest in it.
I see, well since you took the time to criticize the poster for asking a reasonable question, why don't you also take the time and answer it?
I did not criticize him. I did answer it and you did not understand.
I will explain for you again "don't worry about trying to figure out the 100% Synthetic/Double Ester Technology" just use your OEM manual and let the OEM work it out for you.
Unless you like science and have time to burn. Internet engineers will attack what I have said, more important things to in life to spend your time on IMO.
I wasted much of my time looking into stuff like that now I have given up on it as too much is constantly changing and will take the easy road OEM rules.
All the best BITOG.
Sayoonara
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Originally Posted By: SXE10
Originally Posted By: Reg# 43897
Hmmmm... I'll stick w/ Rotella thanks.
John.
Even in your motorbike
Bit limited with viscountcies aren't you, at least 300V covers everything from 0W15 to 20W60.
I doubt Rotella 5W40 could take the abuse 300V 15W50 could somehow
Right.
Because a big rig with turbos the side of an elephants head only runs the stuff for 25000+ miles.so obviously a motorcycle will ruin it.
Absurd.
I use rotella in my Harley. It's a 106,cams,heads milled for compression and port blended. Dyno tuned with a 2 into 1 pipe.
And conventional rotella does just fine in it. Oil temps have hit 300f in traffic yet the innards are spotless.
I've used 300v before. Wasn't impressed. Royal purple automotive 20w-50 was better.
Show me how this 20 dollar a quart oil is better in service than my 3 dollar a quart oil at my 3000 mile interval.
You can't.
Originally Posted By: Reg# 43897
Hmmmm... I'll stick w/ Rotella thanks.
John.
Even in your motorbike
Bit limited with viscountcies aren't you, at least 300V covers everything from 0W15 to 20W60.
I doubt Rotella 5W40 could take the abuse 300V 15W50 could somehow
Right.
Because a big rig with turbos the side of an elephants head only runs the stuff for 25000+ miles.so obviously a motorcycle will ruin it.
Absurd.
I use rotella in my Harley. It's a 106,cams,heads milled for compression and port blended. Dyno tuned with a 2 into 1 pipe.
And conventional rotella does just fine in it. Oil temps have hit 300f in traffic yet the innards are spotless.
I've used 300v before. Wasn't impressed. Royal purple automotive 20w-50 was better.
Show me how this 20 dollar a quart oil is better in service than my 3 dollar a quart oil at my 3000 mile interval.
You can't.
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