2015 F350 diesel need cleaner oil
- Thread starter CrazyMike
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Someone needs to tell Isuzu to stop selling NPRs since diesel wasn't meant to be used for local short trips and long idles.
Matter of fact, tell the entire emergency vehicle business about that too.
Don't forget all of those idiots who have been selling diesel passenger cars for decades.
There's no excuse for this trashy emissions equipment not doing its job. The diesel engine was perfectly fine doing the jobs gas engines used to do until the DPF trash came around.
Now it's being made out that diesel was never intended to do anything but OTR and construction? Yeah, ok.
Matter of fact, tell the entire emergency vehicle business about that too.
Don't forget all of those idiots who have been selling diesel passenger cars for decades.
There's no excuse for this trashy emissions equipment not doing its job. The diesel engine was perfectly fine doing the jobs gas engines used to do until the DPF trash came around.
Now it's being made out that diesel was never intended to do anything but OTR and construction? Yeah, ok.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Shell has the T5 in 10w-30. The cold-weather performance is essentially the same as T6 5w-40. (Admittedly not exactly, but so darn close in similarity that practical delineation would be near impossible to ascertain in start-up routine). So if cold starts are the issue, then there are choices from the Rotella line that do offer the same benefits for less cost.
I'm sorry, I beg to differ. 5Wxx will give approx. 5deg C (9 deg F) better cold performance than 10Wxx. Is it needed for the OP? Prince George BC, presumably in his vicinity, has an average Jan temp of +10F, not too bad. But a record of -58F!!!! (source Wikipedia "Prince George BC/climate") It CAN get REAL cold there, and I suspect spells of -20 to -30F are not uncommon. Those are temps where the difference between a 5W and 10W are significant. Unless of course he always is parked in a heated garage, or has an oil pan heater, and does not leave it out in the cold at work for 8 hrs or go recreating in the winter all day or even longer.
Charlie
Shell has the T5 in 10w-30. The cold-weather performance is essentially the same as T6 5w-40. (Admittedly not exactly, but so darn close in similarity that practical delineation would be near impossible to ascertain in start-up routine). So if cold starts are the issue, then there are choices from the Rotella line that do offer the same benefits for less cost.
I'm sorry, I beg to differ. 5Wxx will give approx. 5deg C (9 deg F) better cold performance than 10Wxx. Is it needed for the OP? Prince George BC, presumably in his vicinity, has an average Jan temp of +10F, not too bad. But a record of -58F!!!! (source Wikipedia "Prince George BC/climate") It CAN get REAL cold there, and I suspect spells of -20 to -30F are not uncommon. Those are temps where the difference between a 5W and 10W are significant. Unless of course he always is parked in a heated garage, or has an oil pan heater, and does not leave it out in the cold at work for 8 hrs or go recreating in the winter all day or even longer.
Charlie
dnewton3
Staff member
You are welcome to differ, Charlie.
I stand by my statement. I admitted it will not be exactly the same on paper (a 9 degF differential when rated in mPa 6000).
In a common rail modern diesel, I SERIOUSLY doubt he'd have a tangible difference between T5 10w-30 and T6 in 5w-40 regarding starting crank events.
Take my quote in context:
Quote:
...but so darn close in similarity that practical delineation would be near impossible to ascertain in start-up routine ...
It would be very, very difficult to show a practical performance difference in start up between the two in real world testing. About the only way to fairly, accurately quantify it would be to do a large series of testing in actual engines in those areas, using sophisticated equipment that could accurately measure the time from cycle start (starter motor engages) until the first "bang" of compression ignition. I don't trust anyone's ear or seat-o-meter when we're talking about stuff like this.
BTW - cold temps are not unique to your area or his. IIRC our record low in good old central IN was actually -33F ambient temp. We routinely see below zero F every year, and just last year had -17F. And my Dmax started up just fine on conventional Rotella TP in 10w-30.
I would agree that perhaps a true PAO 5w-30 might have some realistic benefit over the T5 10w-30. But the suggestion from Chris (his standard canned answer for everything that I can tell) is "T6"; a heavily dosed quasi-syn that I doubt would have any REAL performance difference in cold start cranking over the alternative of T5.
I stand by my statement. I admitted it will not be exactly the same on paper (a 9 degF differential when rated in mPa 6000).
In a common rail modern diesel, I SERIOUSLY doubt he'd have a tangible difference between T5 10w-30 and T6 in 5w-40 regarding starting crank events.
Take my quote in context:
Quote:
...but so darn close in similarity that practical delineation would be near impossible to ascertain in start-up routine ...
It would be very, very difficult to show a practical performance difference in start up between the two in real world testing. About the only way to fairly, accurately quantify it would be to do a large series of testing in actual engines in those areas, using sophisticated equipment that could accurately measure the time from cycle start (starter motor engages) until the first "bang" of compression ignition. I don't trust anyone's ear or seat-o-meter when we're talking about stuff like this.
BTW - cold temps are not unique to your area or his. IIRC our record low in good old central IN was actually -33F ambient temp. We routinely see below zero F every year, and just last year had -17F. And my Dmax started up just fine on conventional Rotella TP in 10w-30.
I would agree that perhaps a true PAO 5w-30 might have some realistic benefit over the T5 10w-30. But the suggestion from Chris (his standard canned answer for everything that I can tell) is "T6"; a heavily dosed quasi-syn that I doubt would have any REAL performance difference in cold start cranking over the alternative of T5.
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The cold starting benefits could be useful at the limits. However, most of these companies don't give us any real data on their cold cranking performance of their HDEOs. So, perhaps the 10w-30 Rotella is very good in the cold, beating the 10w-XX requirement by a substantial amount, while the 5w-40 might just squeak under the 5w-XX limits.
dnewton3
Staff member
I agree that there will certainly be some actual limit, some finite temp, for any given application (one specific truck with aged batteries, etc, etc, etc) that will exhibit a start for 5w versus 10w. I do get that. But we have no real ability to define what that is without real experimentation.
And we all agree that because we're not 100% confident of the OPs location, we are somewhat guessing here. But if he is on that feathery edge of the envelope, if his engine cranking speed is so effected that even that minor differential would come into play, then the choice between T6 and T5 may not be the right basis for this debate in the first place! I am often criticized for being against syns; that is NOT a fair assessment of my position. I am against waste, and people waste syns with aplomb. But there are times when syns do make sense, and uber-stupid-cold temps are one of them. Perhaps, if he's THAT extreme in his temps, he would be better off looking at a 5w-30 PAO like Amsoil or Castrol's Elixion, among others (you probably have a good 0w or 5w from Petro or other local brand as well). My point is that the distinction between T6 5w-40 and T5 10w-30 is so minor that it's not a real-world difference. Heck - the production variance between batches probably closes that 9 degF differential some anyway. If the OP is that sensitive to temps in his location, then T6 isn't the answer; 5w-30 or 0w-30 PAO is.
But what irritates me is that T6 is Chris's answer for everything, as if it's a one-size-fits-all magical fluid that cannot be usurped. Shell has great products, but those products offer choices, despite his singular answer.
The bottom line is this: the OP is going to have to ascertain if his temps warrant using a thin PAO. If so, then that's a good choice for him. But if not, then the distinction between T6 and T5 is so small it's silly; Chris simply up-sells every application to T6 and I find that irritating. That's a marketing response, not sage technical advice.
And we all agree that because we're not 100% confident of the OPs location, we are somewhat guessing here. But if he is on that feathery edge of the envelope, if his engine cranking speed is so effected that even that minor differential would come into play, then the choice between T6 and T5 may not be the right basis for this debate in the first place! I am often criticized for being against syns; that is NOT a fair assessment of my position. I am against waste, and people waste syns with aplomb. But there are times when syns do make sense, and uber-stupid-cold temps are one of them. Perhaps, if he's THAT extreme in his temps, he would be better off looking at a 5w-30 PAO like Amsoil or Castrol's Elixion, among others (you probably have a good 0w or 5w from Petro or other local brand as well). My point is that the distinction between T6 5w-40 and T5 10w-30 is so minor that it's not a real-world difference. Heck - the production variance between batches probably closes that 9 degF differential some anyway. If the OP is that sensitive to temps in his location, then T6 isn't the answer; 5w-30 or 0w-30 PAO is.
But what irritates me is that T6 is Chris's answer for everything, as if it's a one-size-fits-all magical fluid that cannot be usurped. Shell has great products, but those products offer choices, despite his singular answer.
The bottom line is this: the OP is going to have to ascertain if his temps warrant using a thin PAO. If so, then that's a good choice for him. But if not, then the distinction between T6 and T5 is so small it's silly; Chris simply up-sells every application to T6 and I find that irritating. That's a marketing response, not sage technical advice.
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I agree that there will certainly be some actual limit, some finite temp, for any given application (one specific truck with aged batteries, etc, etc, etc) that will exhibit a start for 5w versus 10w. I do get that. But we have no real ability to define what that is without real experimentation.
Particularly since the oil companies haven't been terribly forthcoming with HDEO CCS and MRV values.
And you're right - there are other options, and Rotella does [supposedly] offer a 0w-30. I would love to do some price comparisons between PC Duron 0w-30, Rotella 0w-30, and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0w-30. I do know the last one is readily available in Canada and at a very nice price.
I agree that there will certainly be some actual limit, some finite temp, for any given application (one specific truck with aged batteries, etc, etc, etc) that will exhibit a start for 5w versus 10w. I do get that. But we have no real ability to define what that is without real experimentation.
Particularly since the oil companies haven't been terribly forthcoming with HDEO CCS and MRV values.
And you're right - there are other options, and Rotella does [supposedly] offer a 0w-30. I would love to do some price comparisons between PC Duron 0w-30, Rotella 0w-30, and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0w-30. I do know the last one is readily available in Canada and at a very nice price.
Back to the original post, I recently posted my UOA from my '15 6.7 in the HDEO section. Have you run a UOA or are you just looking at the oil and have decided it looks terrible? While I am new to the modern emissions equipped diesels as this was my 2nd OC and first UOA I agree that the oil looked terrible, like something we used to drain out of a 6-71 Detroit. But after reading my UOA there is nothing to fear as looks in reality mean nothing. My sample was drawn and oil changed per IOLM at 7,8xx mi. and couldn't have looked any better considering that its only the trucks 2nd OC.
My advise is to pick a CJ-4 10w-30 lube and run it per IOLM, sample at the prescribed interval and go from there.
My advise is to pick a CJ-4 10w-30 lube and run it per IOLM, sample at the prescribed interval and go from there.
To original poster, Re: ugly oil- Read the thread I started about sheaffers supreme 9k cj-4... Not as much about the oil, but about the bypass filter. I wish I had done that thing a long time ago... Soot is virtually non existent... Well, at least visible... And the report after 9800 miles is pretty dang good... The pics in my second post is going to be what you want to look at.
Reading this thread helps me understand why prices on the pre-emission diesel trucks is going thru the roof!
Newt.. I would love to have an opportunity to see your data and results on the test on 30wt oils in diesel engine service.. I would be interested in running such an oil in my cummins if the data proved no significant difference.
Newt.. I would love to have an opportunity to see your data and results on the test on 30wt oils in diesel engine service.. I would be interested in running such an oil in my cummins if the data proved no significant difference.
Well, the OEM's seem to be comfortable with 10w30 for all their on road heavy diesels. Every one of them factory fills with 10w30 and recommend it. I am sure they have put a fair amount of R&D time towards determining if it works well. And those 13L thru 15L motors are doing the very same thing that motors have been doing in heavy commercial trucks that came before them. I know several owners of 15L heavy diesels, Cummins and Detroits, that have been using 10w30 for quite a while with no ill effects or above normal wear. There are several fleets that are totally over onto 10w30.
I would find it very hard to believe that the pickup diesels are getting any different treatment and recommendations from the OEM's. Well, the Duramax recommendations are still on 5w40 and 15w40. Not sure why.
I would find it very hard to believe that the pickup diesels are getting any different treatment and recommendations from the OEM's. Well, the Duramax recommendations are still on 5w40 and 15w40. Not sure why.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Shorthorn
Reading this thread helps me understand why prices on the pre-emission diesel trucks is going thru the roof!
Newt.. I would love to have an opportunity to see your data and results on the test on 30wt oils in diesel engine service.. I would be interested in running such an oil in my cummins if the data proved no significant difference.
All you have to do is run 10w-30 HDEO and send it to Blackstone. For your engine, the data is HEAVILY skewed towards 40 grades; most folks use them in the Cummins. Then just look at your results compared to the UAs (universal averages). I can assure you that, short of a major wear issue, you'll easily be within one or two standard deviations; it will be completely normal.
Reading this thread helps me understand why prices on the pre-emission diesel trucks is going thru the roof!
Newt.. I would love to have an opportunity to see your data and results on the test on 30wt oils in diesel engine service.. I would be interested in running such an oil in my cummins if the data proved no significant difference.
All you have to do is run 10w-30 HDEO and send it to Blackstone. For your engine, the data is HEAVILY skewed towards 40 grades; most folks use them in the Cummins. Then just look at your results compared to the UAs (universal averages). I can assure you that, short of a major wear issue, you'll easily be within one or two standard deviations; it will be completely normal.
I live in rural BC (30 min dirt bike ride from Sun Peaks Resort), and drive a Duramax.
If the above does not know why the two recommended grades are 15W40 and 5W40 for D-max, and knows that 10W30 has equal cold start, pumping and flow as a 5W40 synthetic, he should move here for one winter and get some practical experience to accompany his daily absurd rants and uninformed opinions.
The 5W40s offer superior high temperature protection than XW30s. The one I use has a HTHS well over 4.0 and does not shear down to a 30 over the course of the OCI.
More than likely, his test equipment needs calibrating or the thermometer has been dropped on the floor too many times.
After a few years, I will fool with engine oils at my own peril, but not with a new 3500 that lists at $86,000 plus tax.
If the above does not know why the two recommended grades are 15W40 and 5W40 for D-max, and knows that 10W30 has equal cold start, pumping and flow as a 5W40 synthetic, he should move here for one winter and get some practical experience to accompany his daily absurd rants and uninformed opinions.
The 5W40s offer superior high temperature protection than XW30s. The one I use has a HTHS well over 4.0 and does not shear down to a 30 over the course of the OCI.
More than likely, his test equipment needs calibrating or the thermometer has been dropped on the floor too many times.
After a few years, I will fool with engine oils at my own peril, but not with a new 3500 that lists at $86,000 plus tax.
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That I find truly hard to believe. That a 5w40 synthetic is going to provide superior high temperature protection than a 5w30 synthetic. Just because the oil does not shear does not mean it is protecting any better. I doubt the 30w never shears over the OCI either. The little Dmax is not some unique design that has to have 40w to survive. It is just a mid sized average diesel motor. A big yawn as far as diesels go. If other motors from 1.5L on up to 15L can do just fine on 30w oils, not sure why the little Dmax can't. And I know a lot of folks with heavy trucks who do everything from YT to the Rio Grande, year round in summer heat to winter cold, and never have any problem running 30w oils. Some up to 40K miles without even using bypass filtration.
Well, I realize that it is not within your comfort level to risk a $86K small 3500, but some of us have no problem risking our $140K (plus 12.5% Federal Excise tax) heavy commercial trucks with their motors that cost roughly $30K for just a factory rebuilt crate motor. And some of us actually have lived in some serious cold before. Unless you live above the circle and on the ice, you are not in any kind of cold that is any worse than anyone else has experienced. Interesting that several Canadian trucking operations have switched over to 30w oils. Seems the world around you is moving on.
Well, I realize that it is not within your comfort level to risk a $86K small 3500, but some of us have no problem risking our $140K (plus 12.5% Federal Excise tax) heavy commercial trucks with their motors that cost roughly $30K for just a factory rebuilt crate motor. And some of us actually have lived in some serious cold before. Unless you live above the circle and on the ice, you are not in any kind of cold that is any worse than anyone else has experienced. Interesting that several Canadian trucking operations have switched over to 30w oils. Seems the world around you is moving on.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Unless you live above the circle and on the ice, you are not in any kind of cold that is any worse than anyone else has experienced. Interesting that several Canadian trucking operations have switched over to 30w oils. Seems the world around you is moving on.
I agree with UsedOil to some extent
Yeah they may have switched to 30s, but I'd guess 5W or even 0W 30. I pointed out that the OPs general area had a record low of -58F and nobody disagreed. Subarctic Interior locations have lower lows than most locations near the Arctic Ocean, probably due to near constant wind making inversions impossible.
How about I call Carlisle Trucking tomorrow and ask what they are using on their Dalton Hwy trucks in the winter?
It is frankly absurd to assert that a 5Wx or 0Wx does not cold start better than a 10Wx. That is synonymous with saying 5 (or 0) = 10.
Charlie
Unless you live above the circle and on the ice, you are not in any kind of cold that is any worse than anyone else has experienced. Interesting that several Canadian trucking operations have switched over to 30w oils. Seems the world around you is moving on.
I agree with UsedOil to some extent
Yeah they may have switched to 30s, but I'd guess 5W or even 0W 30. I pointed out that the OPs general area had a record low of -58F and nobody disagreed. Subarctic Interior locations have lower lows than most locations near the Arctic Ocean, probably due to near constant wind making inversions impossible.
How about I call Carlisle Trucking tomorrow and ask what they are using on their Dalton Hwy trucks in the winter?
It is frankly absurd to assert that a 5Wx or 0Wx does not cold start better than a 10Wx. That is synonymous with saying 5 (or 0) = 10.
Charlie
Charlie,
I'm pretty well on record on here as stating that the only reason to really chase a lower XW rating is clearly because you need the cold cranking abilities that it imparts...in the cold.
I'm also a believer in using that knowledge to choose the right oil when needed.
Here's a lift from a paper, exploring exactly that...the startability of a number of engines on a number of grades. Temperature lowered on the grade chosen until it fails to start.
There's clearly a relationship between a startable engine, and the "W" viscosity.
It's particularly interesting given that the 25W30 is less startable than the 20W50, and the trend is not with the "operating" end of the spectrum, but clearly at the "W" end, and the prevailing temperature.
The trend still is there for the least startable engine design tested, a 4.0L straight 6, with a long pick-up tube, and a gear oil pump mounted way above the oil level.
Statistically, the trend is there, there's an offset to the other engine designs.
So yep, you need to choose your W rating for your environment.
(and my J car running 25W70 at -7 to -10C still started every time)
I'm pretty well on record on here as stating that the only reason to really chase a lower XW rating is clearly because you need the cold cranking abilities that it imparts...in the cold.
I'm also a believer in using that knowledge to choose the right oil when needed.
Here's a lift from a paper, exploring exactly that...the startability of a number of engines on a number of grades. Temperature lowered on the grade chosen until it fails to start.
There's clearly a relationship between a startable engine, and the "W" viscosity.
It's particularly interesting given that the 25W30 is less startable than the 20W50, and the trend is not with the "operating" end of the spectrum, but clearly at the "W" end, and the prevailing temperature.
The trend still is there for the least startable engine design tested, a 4.0L straight 6, with a long pick-up tube, and a gear oil pump mounted way above the oil level.
Statistically, the trend is there, there's an offset to the other engine designs.
So yep, you need to choose your W rating for your environment.
(and my J car running 25W70 at -7 to -10C still started every time)
That graph indicates that I should use a 0W40 in the winter.
Seems like the world is moving on who, TiredTrucker?
The people who build the Duramax, but can't figure out engine oil?
Lets compare an engine with a 35L oil sump that runs up to 1,750 rpm,
to an engine that will run at 4,500 rpm (under braking) with an 11 liter sump.
The crate engine for a GEAC44 is $1.5M, has a 500 gallon sump and runs on 20W40.
What does that have to do with the Duramax? Nothing.
Oh, and another consideration; XW40s protects against fuel dilution better than XW30s.
Seems like the world is moving on who, TiredTrucker?
The people who build the Duramax, but can't figure out engine oil?
Lets compare an engine with a 35L oil sump that runs up to 1,750 rpm,
to an engine that will run at 4,500 rpm (under braking) with an 11 liter sump.
The crate engine for a GEAC44 is $1.5M, has a 500 gallon sump and runs on 20W40.
What does that have to do with the Duramax? Nothing.
Oh, and another consideration; XW40s protects against fuel dilution better than XW30s.
dnewton3
Staff member
I've studied over 550 Dmax UOAs from all over North America, from MX all the way up to the Circle. In just about every application you can possibly imagine. They are included in my UOA analysis study.
When it comes to cold starts, IF you are in an area cold enough that every centistoke matters, I do whole-heatedly agree that a PAO 5w or 0w would be prudent. I already stated that previously. This will aid in cold cranking ability for the compression ignition service. I get that; you get that; Charlie gets that. Move on.
But NOTHING (and I mean absolutely zip, nada, zilch) indicates that the WEAR-RATES are affected in modern diesels by the thinner grades, and most certainly in particular the traits of a Dmax, which could not care less about what grade you use as long as it's a CJ-4 lube in an appropriate range.
I would challenge you to show me proof of your UOAs indicating that your use of 5w-40 develops wear-rates so positively altered that they are beyond statistical normalcy. Please tell me, right now, what your running mean and standard deviations are for your specific individual Dmax engine in your personal truck, so that we all can glean how well you understand (or don't ...) the concept of wear rates, variance and trending. Please post up all your UOAs so that we can see the true micro-analysis numbers of your data, contrasted to the mass-market macro formulations. My data is already posted for everyone to see; where's yours?
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Oh, and another consideration; XW40s protects against fuel dilution better than XW30s.
What? Where did that come from?
I call 100% bovine manure on this statement from you.
I will have to see CREDIBLE, SUBSTANTIATED PROOF before I believe that.
Really?
Seriously?
That's your story and you're going to stick to it?
Please explain how the thicker grade of oil can control the dilution effects from a leaking injector or the fueling in regen cycles? Please show me how those phenomenon are under the direct influence of the grade of lube. Please post up the direct evidence from credible article or SAE study that shows a 40 grade is somehow superior to a 30 grade in terms of controlling fuel dilution and it's effects.
All I can say is .... WOW .....
.
When it comes to cold starts, IF you are in an area cold enough that every centistoke matters, I do whole-heatedly agree that a PAO 5w or 0w would be prudent. I already stated that previously. This will aid in cold cranking ability for the compression ignition service. I get that; you get that; Charlie gets that. Move on.
But NOTHING (and I mean absolutely zip, nada, zilch) indicates that the WEAR-RATES are affected in modern diesels by the thinner grades, and most certainly in particular the traits of a Dmax, which could not care less about what grade you use as long as it's a CJ-4 lube in an appropriate range.
I would challenge you to show me proof of your UOAs indicating that your use of 5w-40 develops wear-rates so positively altered that they are beyond statistical normalcy. Please tell me, right now, what your running mean and standard deviations are for your specific individual Dmax engine in your personal truck, so that we all can glean how well you understand (or don't ...) the concept of wear rates, variance and trending. Please post up all your UOAs so that we can see the true micro-analysis numbers of your data, contrasted to the mass-market macro formulations. My data is already posted for everyone to see; where's yours?
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Oh, and another consideration; XW40s protects against fuel dilution better than XW30s.
What? Where did that come from?
I call 100% bovine manure on this statement from you.
I will have to see CREDIBLE, SUBSTANTIATED PROOF before I believe that.
Really?
Seriously?
That's your story and you're going to stick to it?
Please explain how the thicker grade of oil can control the dilution effects from a leaking injector or the fueling in regen cycles? Please show me how those phenomenon are under the direct influence of the grade of lube. Please post up the direct evidence from credible article or SAE study that shows a 40 grade is somehow superior to a 30 grade in terms of controlling fuel dilution and it's effects.
All I can say is .... WOW .....
.
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FWIW, I just talked to the shop foreman for Carlile Trucking, the largest trucking firm in AK.
I specifically asked about Slope trucks.
They run Delo 400 15W40 (didn't ask about LE).
They either have Webastos or leave them running in super cold.
He claimed the Webasto keeps the 15W40 "warm enough" to start even though it only heats block via coolant (and cab of course - I have one, it is wonderful).
Obviously someone (shop foreman and/or mgt.) is not convinced 30s are great and is also not convinced they need 10W-5W-0W for their application.
99.9% of the literate people on this planet would think we are crazy for carrying on this argument, especially since I imagine the OP is long gone....
Charlie
I specifically asked about Slope trucks.
They run Delo 400 15W40 (didn't ask about LE).
They either have Webastos or leave them running in super cold.
He claimed the Webasto keeps the 15W40 "warm enough" to start even though it only heats block via coolant (and cab of course - I have one, it is wonderful).
Obviously someone (shop foreman and/or mgt.) is not convinced 30s are great and is also not convinced they need 10W-5W-0W for their application.
99.9% of the literate people on this planet would think we are crazy for carrying on this argument, especially since I imagine the OP is long gone....
Charlie
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