More Red Line Specs

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
API sets minimum standards, doesn't force anyone to make a lesser product.

IMO, the only reason that you wouldn't get approvals is if you are in the business of basestock shopping, and don't want to have to recertify every time there's a change.



Wait a minute. Don't they limit zddp?


Phosphorous ???

min 600, max 800 for oils that are to be certified against GF-5, so really only 30s, 20s and below...Redline wouldn't be certifying against GF-5 with a 5W30 with an HTHS of 3.7 anyway, as it's clearly not an EC oil,and couldn't meet the economy requirements.

Other than the ILSAC grades, they can play to their heart's content.

There's also no limit for Undetectium, either in the current specs, or on the horizon I believe.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
API sets minimum standards, doesn't force anyone to make a lesser product.

IMO, the only reason that you wouldn't get approvals is if you are in the business of basestock shopping, and don't want to have to recertify every time there's a change.



Wait a minute. Don't they limit zddp?


There's also no limit for Undetectium, either in the current specs, or on the horizon I believe.


There kinda has to be. If they can't detect it how are they going to limit it.

As a engineer I detest standards as they mostly serve to limit creativity.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
As a engineer I detest standards as they mostly serve to limit creativity.


As an engineer, I think standards are absolutely necessary to protect society at large from people with Dunning Kruger syndrome, who have no place designing anything.

Even WITH the presence of standards, as a designer you are free to be creative as long as what you are doing is superior to the standard, or justifiable through a process.

 

[userfriendly]

If cost was not a consideration, would creativity suffer as a result?

 

[mjoekingz28]

I kind of wish there were more standards in the auto industry..


I mean, what besides gasoline and fuses are interchangeable amongst all makes.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
API sets minimum standards, doesn't force anyone to make a lesser product.

IMO, the only reason that you wouldn't get approvals is if you are in the business of basestock shopping, and don't want to have to recertify every time there's a change.



Wait a minute. Don't they limit zddp?


There's also no limit for Undetectium, either in the current specs, or on the horizon I believe.


There kinda has to be. If they can't detect it how are they going to limit it.

As a engineer I detest standards as they mostly serve to limit creativity.



If we apply this logic laws of gravity, time etc then the universe would be all over the place unpredictable.

It because of standards creativity can be designed within set parameters without these its chaos, no order etc and the play ground for devils.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Every tree but the tree of knowledge^^^^^^^^^^^^



Standardshuh?! Should we all do the same thing? What about the fast food burger industry? There are many different ways to have a burger and fries. All kind of the same and all kind of different.


Are there devils in West Australian desert? I think there may be some in Tempe, Arizona.





Another word on standards. It seems they can be good and can be bad. Like was posted when I asked about fluid film vs Boeshield, someone said they are two very different products set to accomplish the same task(s), or something like that.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Standards limit creativity. Budget seems to be what many standards start with. Can't be creative without a budget that supports it.

Red Line oils are excellent. Not all of us want an additive-reduced low-HTHS oil, or a discount oil.

Red Line can learn a thing from Royal Purple, Amsoil... on marketing to the masses.
Keep the current Red Line product line, and add to it!

Lets look at the competitors:
RoyalPurple has an API, HMX, HPS,and XPR line(only regret that lack of SAE grades)
Mobil has Mobil1, Mobil1EP, Mobil1ESP, Mobil1AFE, Mobil1HM, MobilSS...
Amsoil has OE, XL, SS...
Torco has SR1, SR1r, SR5, SR5GDL...
MPT has Ten-k, Thirty-k, Racing...

From a marketing stand point, Red Line is seriously missing out on many consumers that are only capable of quoting their owners manual, and spreading fear and doom to those that don't care for the automaker recommendations.

Red Line needs a full ester based SN-GF5 consumer oil, with legit API, ILSAC, ACEA, automaker, SAE, spec's.... all those owners' manuals requirements to have to be quoted.

Red Line needs a discount ester/groupIII SN-GF5 oil for those that want to brag about using the best, but can't afford the current product line.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
As a engineer I detest standards as they mostly serve to limit creativity.


As an engineer, I think standards are absolutely necessary to protect society at large from people with Dunning Kruger syndrome, who have no place designing anything.

Even WITH the presence of standards, as a designer you are free to be creative as long as what you are doing is superior to the standard, or justifiable through a process.


Naw, I don't want to cobble things together from a cookbook. Someone who doesn't have confidence will appreciate the help though. People who are scared. People who use the dexos.

 

[turtlevette]

And I think its absolutely incredulous that after spending over a decade and probably a man year worth of time on here, when asked what is the best oil, these people retort Mobil 1 0w 40 because it has the most approvals.

 

[robertcope]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
And I think its absolutely incredulous that after spending over a decade and probably a man year worth of time on here, when asked what is the best oil, these people retort Mobil 1 0w 40 because it has the most approvals.


Okay, what'a a better oil than M1 0W40? How did you measure that?

I think it is funny folks claim to know what the best oil is without any way to test and measure it. Without a way to directly test and measure, we have to look at results that we can get; approvals are pretty good results that are available to us.

robert

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Standards limit creativity. Budget seems to be what many standards start with. Can't be creative without a budget that supports it.

Red Line oils are excellent. Not all of us want an additive-reduced low-HTHS oil, or a discount oil.

Red Line needs a full ester based SN-GF5 consumer oil, with legit API, ILSAC, ACEA, automaker, SAE, spec's.... all those owners' manuals requirements to have to be quoted.

Red Line needs a discount ester/groupIII SN-GF5 oil for those that want to brag about using the best, but can't afford the current product line.



You're hired! Another reason for standards in commercial practice is to limit competition (and, yes, innovation) just like a given "formula" does in racing. If competition becomes ruinous or simply uncomfortable, oligarchic interests get together and say, hey, there's enough here for all of us, let's just compete in marketing. Economists call this "rent seeking". If there are to be standards, they should only be minimum standards so that innovation is not choked off. They should not be only "build this".

 

[userfriendly]

Turtlevette made a good point about M1 0W40.
With all of it's approvals, I would not use it in my DPF equipped DuraMax.
But 0W40 Delvac or other low SAPS? Yes, and then only until the weather warmed up.
There is no one-size-fits-all answer to an engine oil question.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I agree. What a hokey reason for avoiding API. I do wonder why they don't.

I do understand they have legitimate reasons for not doing so. They do want to keep certain formulations that formal API or ILSAC approvals wouldn't allow. But, that wouldn't necessarily apply completely across the board. After all, 40 and 50 grades have less strict rules. I do get their point about compromising their formulations. But, there are other options, including another line of oils should they so choose.

I'm not expecting an ILSAC 20 or even a 30 out of Red Line terribly soon, although their 0w-30 is probably their closest contender. But, there are plenty of stout oils out there that do have API approvals of one sort or another.

The real reason that Red Line should be using, since it is more intellectually honest, is that their target market isn't people looking for API/ILSAC oils.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Standards limit creativity. Budget seems to be what many standards start with. Can't be creative without a budget that supports it.

Red Line oils are excellent. Not all of us want an additive-reduced low-HTHS oil, or a discount oil.

Red Line can learn a thing from Royal Purple, Amsoil... on marketing to the masses.
Keep the current Red Line product line, and add to it!

Lets look at the competitors:
RoyalPurple has an API, HMX, HPS,and XPR line(only regret that lack of SAE grades)
Mobil has Mobil1, Mobil1EP, Mobil1ESP, Mobil1AFE, Mobil1HM, MobilSS...
Amsoil has OE, XL, SS...
Torco has SR1, SR1r, SR5, SR5GDL...
MPT has Ten-k, Thirty-k, Racing...

From a marketing stand point, Red Line is seriously missing out on many consumers that are only capable of quoting their owners manual, and spreading fear and doom to those that don't care for the automaker recommendations.

Red Line needs a full ester based SN-GF5 consumer oil, with legit API, ILSAC, ACEA, automaker, SAE, spec's.... all those owners' manuals requirements to have to be quoted.

Red Line needs a discount ester/groupIII SN-GF5 oil for those that want to brag about using the best, but can't afford the current product line.





Easy there, how do you know what RedLine needs. There are probably a hundred oils out there that meet the exact same specs, so why do they NEED to tarnish their R and D on competing with the Joneses.

Some companies may stick to their guns and go down with the ship. Others may get in a frenzy and scratch and pawl just to stay afloat, lol, see Costanza pushing women and kids to get ti the exit when he saw a fire.

Also, look at Harley-Davidson. Being unbiased here, unlike I heard of some folks on the issue.....they made the VRod which seems to go against 'what a HD is'. Also, they now make bikes that seem 'sub-par' to what they have been making somewhere in South America ' Brazil I think'.


So tell me why again should a company who seems to be doing everything in house suffer in their work to make a product that may demoralize them since they may enjoy making something ' supreme'. You want API specs? Why rag on them?

I may be out of line here, but your line of thinking has really messed up the US economy. Some Us contenders may have been making a great product and are proud of it. Then the pressure ' to compete' surfaced and some may have shipped all of their production overseas, some may have invented a cheap product line to build in China while keeping the premium line at home to keep the good alive, and maybe others went into hibernation because they didnt want [censored] being manufactured under their watchful eye.


So please watch what you say about a company who may just being trying to deliver, in their minds at least, a very good product that doesnt compromise where it counts.

I can t quit you got me riled up....."from a marketing standpoint, Red Line is seriously missing out...." Yeah, and? Who cares? Really? Is the ultimate goal of human existence to "get the most quantity?" He who dies with the most stuff wins? Is that your mentality? Marketing....ahh yes, marketing....add an unethical advertising campaign and maybe they can drum up a few more orders...yeah? And? Who cares?


Maybe, just maybe Dude, there is more to life than the maximum number, having the most, living the maximum number of days. How do you know what "Red Line needs?"

A discount ester? What the...... Was it Mr. Deeds that said something like, what sid you want to be when you grow up? Well, you made one compromise after another and look where you ended up......yeah, something like that



So, please quit talking dirty about stuff you think you know.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Standards limit creativity. Budget seems to be what many standards start with. Can't be creative without a budget that supports it.

Red Line oils are excellent. Not all of us want an additive-reduced low-HTHS oil, or a discount oil.

Red Line can learn a thing from Royal Purple, Amsoil... on marketing to the masses.
Keep the current Red Line product line, and add to it!

Lets look at the competitors:
RoyalPurple has an API, HMX, HPS,and XPR line(only regret that lack of SAE grades)
Mobil has Mobil1, Mobil1EP, Mobil1ESP, Mobil1AFE, Mobil1HM, MobilSS...
Amsoil has OE, XL, SS...
Torco has SR1, SR1r, SR5, SR5GDL...
MPT has Ten-k, Thirty-k, Racing...

From a marketing stand point, Red Line is seriously missing out on many consumers that are only capable of quoting their owners manual, and spreading fear and doom to those that don't care for the automaker recommendations.

Red Line needs a full ester based SN-GF5 consumer oil, with legit API, ILSAC, ACEA, automaker, SAE, spec's.... all those owners' manuals requirements to have to be quoted.

Red Line needs a discount ester/groupIII SN-GF5 oil for those that want to brag about using the best, but can't afford the current product line.





Easy there, how do you know what RedLine needs. There are probably a hundred oils out there that meet the exact same specs, so why do they NEED to tarnish their R and D on competing with the Joneses.

Some companies may stick to their guns and go down with the ship. Others may get in a frenzy and scratch and pawl just to stay afloat, lol, see Costanza pushing women and kids to get ti the exit when he saw a fire.

Also, look at Harley-Davidson. Being unbiased here, unlike I heard of some folks on the issue.....they made the VRod which seems to go against 'what a HD is'. Also, they now make bikes that seem 'sub-par' to what they have been making somewhere in South America ' Brazil I think'.


So tell me why again should a company who seems to be doing everything in house suffer in their work to make a product that may demoralize them since they may enjoy making something ' supreme'. You want API specs? Why rag on them?

I may be out of line here, but your line of thinking has really messed up the US economy. Some Us contenders may have been making a great product and are proud of it. Then the pressure ' to compete' surfaced and some may have shipped all of their production overseas, some may have invented a cheap product line to build in China while keeping the premium line at home to keep the good alive, and maybe others went into hibernation because they didnt want [censored] being manufactured under their watchful eye.


So please watch what you say about a company who may just being trying to deliver, in their minds at least, a very good product that doesnt compromise where it counts.

I can t quit you got me riled up....."from a marketing standpoint, Red Line is seriously missing out...." Yeah, and? Who cares? Really? Is the ultimate goal of human existence to "get the most quantity?" He who dies with the most stuff wins? Is that your mentality? Marketing....ahh yes, marketing....add an unethical advertising campaign and maybe they can drum up a few more orders...yeah? And? Who cares?


Maybe, just maybe Dude, there is more to life than the maximum number, having the most, living the maximum number of days. How do you know what "Red Line needs?"

A discount ester? What the...... Was it Mr. Deeds that said something like, what sid you want to be when you grow up? Well, you made one compromise after another and look where you ended up......yeah, something like that



So, please quit talking dirty about stuff you think you know.


Darn straight. Real engineers and scientists are sick of bean counters and marketing tools running things.

 

[priler]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech


Red Line oils are excellent. Not all of us want an additive-reduced low-HTHS oil, or a discount oil.





I almost feel like tattooing this across my forehead. there should be 1000 billboards across the country with just these words.

 

[priler]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: buster
I kind of wish they made an API SN street/daily driver oil with less ZDP.


Same here, but while keeping the moly, boron, and calcium levels very high, and also increasing the VI across the 'street' line up, with the latest, greatest, non-shearing, VIIs out there.

LOL


why do you think they aren't using the higher quality VIIs? their specs and performance show that they are. perhaps they know what they're doing when they don't use even higher amounts on those oils they do use them in.


most 5W-50 oils out there,for example,use grp III base stocks and a higher amount of the less expensive,lower performing VIIs,which is why they tend to shear 1 grade in as short as 100 miles and by the end of the OCI they can even be near 2 grades lower or actually be 2 grades lower. that's not going to happen with Red Line unless you have huge amounts of fuel dilution which will affect any oil and if that's the case,and you ask,they'll give you a recommendation. that's the other good thing about Red Line,their CS.

 

[boxcartommie22]

mjoekingz well said!!!!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: priler
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: buster
I kind of wish they made an API SN street/daily driver oil with less ZDP.


Same here, but while keeping the moly, boron, and calcium levels very high, and also increasing the VI across the 'street' line up, with the latest, greatest, non-shearing, VIIs out there.

LOL


why do you think they aren't using the higher quality VIIs? their specs and performance show that they are. perhaps they know what they're doing when they don't use even higher amounts on those oils they do use them in.


most 5W-50 oils out there,for example,use grp III base stocks and a higher amount of the less expensive,lower performing VIIs,which is why they tend to shear 1 grade in as short as 100 miles and by the end of the OCI they can even be near 2 grades lower or actually be 2 grades lower. that's not going to happen with Red Line unless you have huge amounts of fuel dilution which will affect any oil and if that's the case,and you ask,they'll give you a recommendation. that's the other good thing about Red Line,their CS.



Look at my sig, you do NOT have to sell me on their products (nor their cs, Dave is a godsend)!!

I just wish that their 'street' oils had a slightly higher VI, like they used to have in days gone by (I was SOLD on their 0W-30 until they radically lowered it's VI in this new 're-formulation').

The reason I think that they are not using the latest VI skyrocketing VIIs is that their oils' VIs would be MUCH higher if they did, even in the same volumes, and even given their high POE content base stocks.