New bike, new fluids but bad luck with M1 TDT

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I bought a new (to me) bike this month and part of my BITOG obsession, I changed all of the fluids. Coolant twice, engine oil and filter, final drive, forks, brake and clutch. 2004 Kawasaki Vulcan Nomad FI. Got it for a great price since it needs some cosmetic work, nothing major. Test ride was fine but the only thing that stuck out was a little headshake around 45mph.

I used some BMW coolant since I have a couple gallons. The overflow bottle was empty and nasty; and I was switching from green to BMW blue so I did it twice to clean and get the green out.

Engine oil in the bike was two+ years old with around 1k miles on hit and a factory Kawasaki filter. I filled it with M1 TDT 5w-40 and a Wix filter. Kawi recommends 10w-40 JASO MA but allows 20w-40 and 20w-50 above 32F. Or even 10w-30 under 86F. 10w-50 can be used in any ambient temperature.

Final drive calls for SAE90 API GL-5 above 32F so I filled it with some M1 75w-90LS I had. Old stuff wasn't too bad so it must have been changed in the past.

Brake and hydraulic clutch fluid was nasty. Both levers had stiction and I thought I would have to replace the seals but new Valvoline DOT4 made everything happy again.

A new rear tire; some DEXIII ATF in the forks; new front wheel bearings(and seals); lube and tighten steering stem bearings; and lube the swingarm bearings has brought it back. It takes a little getting used to this tank after riding an Interceptor for the past 12 years exclusively.

I used the M1 TDT since I had some from the AZ sale last year where I picked it up for $12/gallon(I think) and I haven't used it in a bike before. After about 300 miles on the oil I noticed the clutch was slipping in higher gears at lower RPM. 5th gear(top) at 60mph would rev quite a bit. No tach so no numbers. It was really bad yesterday after my first ride in a week waiting for parts so I decided to change to Valvoline synth 20w-50 I picked up at the AZ clearance last month.

No change right away but after ~100 miles the clutch slip is gone. I know the clutch wasn't slipping when I test rode it because I gave it the "Official Click and Clack clutch test". I thought about everything I did for maintenance and the only thing that came to me is the clutch fluid replacement changed the engagement point of the lever. When riding with the slipping clutch the slightest pull of the lever would cause it to slip. So I thought of the lever binding and not letting the clutch engage fully. After filling with Valvoline this doesn't happen.

I have read about many people using TDT in a bike with success but it didn't work for me.

Moral of this long story is: I will be using a JASO MA oil in this bike. I won't try TDT in my VFR either...I'll just use it in my OPE I guess. I've been riding and maintaining shared sump bikes for 24 years and this is the first experience with this phenomenon.

On a sidenote: I test rode a Honda VTX1800 and that had a slipping clutch under full acceleration so I passed on buying that...I wonder if it just needed the right oil?
 
I havent heard of many using M1 TDT in bikes.

I do know that Rotella t6 5w-40 is Jaso MA and popular.
 
Interesting findings, any chance you recall which Valvoline 20W-50 it was? I've been looking for a PCMO 20W50 to run in the bike with a shared sump. I'm assuming, though, it was the Motorcycle 4T since you mention the JASO-MA.
 
I am betting that you have a clutch change in your near future. I have not used Mobil TDT, but I have used 15W/40 and 5W/40 Rotella and Delo for many years, in many wet clutch bikes, without any clutch issues. Either the clutch in your bike is worn nearly to the limit, or there is a problem with the adjustment, holding it from full spring pressure. I doubt that the oil is the root of the problem. Good Luck.
 
Onlycomment I'm making is, check the owners or the service manual for your bike to be sure the anti-freeze you used will work. My friends old Honda Goldwing manual, said to only use silicate free anti- freeze. I guess the silicate is like sand, and will eat up the water pump seal in time. It should say it's silicate free on the bottle,,
 
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I am betting that you have a clutch change in your near future.


My thoughts, too. I got some TDT 5W40 on clearance at Walmart for $9/gal. I was a little unsure about using it in a bike, but put it in my ZRX1200R. So far, so good.
 
most 5-40 "synthetics" are just group III base oils, with that wide spread a lot of fragile additives, viscosity index improvers + pour point depressants are used. they can break down + cause issues. one Victory rider experienced total breakdown of the rotella "synthetic" 5-40. he reported riding in high heat with a loaded bike. the bog 106 cu. in. air oil engine with shared gearbox killed the oil!!!!
 
Originally Posted By: benjy
most 5-40 "synthetics" are just group III base oils, with that wide spread a lot of fragile additives, viscosity index improvers + pour point depressants are used. they can break down + cause issues. one Victory rider experienced total breakdown of the rotella "synthetic" 5-40. he reported riding in high heat with a loaded bike. the bog 106 cu. in. air oil engine with shared gearbox killed the oil!!!!


Did he post a UOA? If so, linky please.

tia
 
the 5w40 HDEO's are well known to not live as long in shared sump systems. They work well if you are keeping short OCI's compared to the 15w40 variants, but short intervals is not really cost effective with these.
 
Technically speaking there is no oil that can not defeat a wet clutch
in good working order... what is confusing the issue is the fact that
all motorcycle wet clutches will reach a point in their life and start
to slip... no one complains about clutch slip when the bike is new...
but on about the 27K to 57K range is when containments may build up to
point where the clutch begins to loose its grip... this is usually
discovered by the owner during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle like at
a track day... in error one can blame the oil but its really the
contaminants on the clutch plates...

If you wish 100,000 mile clutch life then you have to invest is some
good old sweat equity... because at the first sign of slip it doesn't
automatically mean your oil was not compatible (what ever that means)
or your clutch plates are wore too thin because you can Mic them to
determine if they are serviceable within the factory specifications...
under scrutiny you'll usually find that the slip was due to normal
glazing and contaminates...

Deglazing clutch plates ain't nothing new... no sir... back in the 70s
it use to be part of every savvy rider's maintenance plan... and for
some reason that all change during the 90s... why fix what you can buy
new is the what you hear now a days... but if your interested in
making your clutch bite good as new then roll up your sleeves and read
on... if not get back on the couch...

Inspect the friction plates for glazing... make sure you have plenty
of material to work with... your shop manual states clutch thickness
in thousands of an inch or mm...

First removed the contaminants with Acetone... pick a hard surface to lay
over a 600 grit black dry emery paper... rotate the clutch plate in a
circle... you're just busting the glaze... don't get carried away
remove too much material... You should end up with a friction plate
looks dull like a new one as opposed to a shinny glazed one... recheck
thickness...

gallery_3131_51_129667.jpg



Next check the pressure plates for bluing caused by localized heat...
make sure they are not warped... consult the manual for a thickness
range... now removed the contaminants with Acetone and wire wheeled
them to erased the blue and also to generally scuff up the surface...
you should end up with a dull surface free of Blue marks...

gallery_3131_51_40098.jpg




Working on the clutch without draining the engine oil...

ClutchFix2_zpsd4fae11b.jpg

ClutchFix3_zpsa99f34bf.jpg


Questions???
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
I havent heard of many using M1 TDT in bikes.

I do know that Rotella t6 5w-40 is Jaso MA and popular.


I was a long time user of M1 MX4T in my VFR until I "saw the light" of motorcycle marketed oils and I have a good stash of RT6. If I don't find more on sale I will be going to regular Rotella in 15w-40.

I have had not issues with RT6 either.
 
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I am betting that you have a clutch change in your near future. I have not used Mobil TDT, but I have used 15W/40 and 5W/40 Rotella and Delo for many years, in many wet clutch bikes, without any clutch issues. Either the clutch in your bike is worn nearly to the limit, or there is a problem with the adjustment, holding it from full spring pressure. I doubt that the oil is the root of the problem. Good Luck.


I'm wondering the same thing as I don't know how it was ridden in the past. I'm at least the 3rd owner.
 
Originally Posted By: EdwardC
Interesting findings, any chance you recall which Valvoline 20W-50 it was? I've been looking for a PCMO 20W50 to run in the bike with a shared sump. I'm assuming, though, it was the Motorcycle 4T since you mention the JASO-MA.

I put in the synthetic 4T oil that is JASO MA2.
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Questions???


Got one...

Given that the glazing and heat are the artifacts of power loss across the clutch in the first instance, how can they be the primary CAUSE of clutch slip ?

You don't get heat and glazing on a clamped up clutch.
 
Yep that sound like typical clutch slip caused by the oil, it will normally go away within 100 miles if you swap back to known good clutch oil.

What is tdt mobil 1, I used their HM stuff once, no obvious slippage , but felt it was borderline in the way the clutch behaved.
 
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I remember that M1 TDT sale. I scored a pretty good grip of it. The coolant that my BMW water pumper calls for is with silicates and without nitrates. May be worth cross referencing to see what Kawasaki had in mind.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow


Got one...

Given that the glazing and heat are the artifacts of power loss across the clutch in the first instance, how can they be the primary CAUSE of clutch slip ?



The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience... employing those
tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip are high mileage... mileage is the
constant among all of the clutches that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... you
can't established a constant when one owner swears M1 TDT caused clutch slip whereas
equally other owners swear it don't... but experience shows us under close visual
scrutiny that all clutches begin to slip due to normal glazing and contaminates built up
over mileage... mileage is the constant missing from the trouble shooting...
 
I have used hdeo in my bikes for years. My 08 roadliner gets t6 5w40 and does just fine. Absolutely no slip. Only time I've got a slipping clutch with oil was when I used some cheap 20w50 regular car oil to flush the crankcase on an old Honda. I changed it to hdeo 15w40 and slip went away.
 
Good luck with the new bike!
Valvoline motorcycle is a fine oil, I always used to use the conventional at $4 a quart, always liked it for the slightly "grabby" feel of my wet clutch in my previous bikes. I'm sure the syn is just as good.

Only time will tell if you have a clutch issue though. Meaning the Jaso approved Valvoline might just be giving you enough grab to not slip.
 
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