HTHSv and xw30 vs xw40 choice

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Originally Posted By: DS9
Excellent point.

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First post here (below) is wrong.
Originally Posted By: Benito
HTHS viscosity is more important than grade.
The Euro oils must all have a minimum HTHSv of 3.5 regardless of if they are xw30 or xw40.


Some europian oils (oils for european cars) have minimum HTHS of 2.9 mPa.s.

Page 5 http://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/2010_ACEA_Oil_Sequences.pdf

C1 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines requiring low friction, low viscosity, low SAPS oils with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9 mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel economy.
Warning: these oils have the lowest SAPS limits and are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

C2 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles

He isn't wrong, but neither are you neighbour. Of course from our European stand point there's at least four different ACEA specification oils amongst twelve overall for passenger cars only as you posted earlier that specifies lower HTHS values.
But for Americans and Canadians Euro spec oil is only A3/B4 since all European cars sold there are using that, except maybe Volvo.
 
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We actually do get some ACEA C type oils here, in both the lower and higher HTHS. They just aren't terribly common, and certainly don't have the visibility of M1 0w-40 or Castrol 0w-30, 0w-40, or 5w-40.
 
@chrisri, Garak
Thanks for both of your comments.

What I wanted to say is the fact that some european (diesel) engines using ACEA C2 - exceed hundreds thousands of kilometers (in Europe)

As we know, the use of oil is a compromise of conflicting factors.
Thus, the use of oil with lower HTHS. under certain conditions, is an excellent compromise, rather than a bad compromise. Many drivers and mechanics have witnessed this fact here.

I mean, for PSA (Peugeot, Citroen - second largest car manufacturer in Europe) HTHS min. 2.9 are sufficient for long term operation (in Europe)
 
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Although in general I agree with you that C2 oils protect engines in sufficient way when following OEMs recommendations there were some isolated cases where 1,6 HDIs had camshaft failures when using these low HT-HS lubricants. We have two Berlingos that were bought from know previous owners with full maintenance history. One of them was maintain with c2 oils at Citroen dealership, and other had C3 and A3/B4 oils used before cars were bought. First one had a cam failure later.
I repeat, this are isolated incidents, but for sure something to consider.
Of course there's other variables, cars weren't used in the same way and oils could be completely unrelated with failure. Just my experience.
 
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the 1.6 hdi has roller cams. what exactly was the failure?

the chain and tensioner between the two cams often failed, usually as a result from an injector leaking exhaust gas into the oil.
 
Cam chain stretched and tensioner failed. Doing that it made deep marks on the head. Camshaft itself had some wear on the lobes, but nothing drastic. According to a Citroen technician camshafts on this engines are not solid, and lobes itself can move on a shaft. They insisted on changing both camshafts with tensioner and chain.
I was out of the country at the moment, and van was needed for work so we went the expensive dealership route. This car had C2 oils prior to that failure. He also recommended using thicker oil afterwards as by his words they had better results with those.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
We actually do get some ACEA C type oils here, in both the lower and higher HTHS. They just aren't terribly common, and certainly don't have the visibility of M1 0w-40 or Castrol 0w-30, 0w-40, or 5w-40.

I think C oils are going to become more present in the future. Diesels are becoming more popular, and hopefully EPA will push for ULSG in 2017.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Cam chain stretched and tensioner failed. Doing that it made deep marks on the head. Camshaft itself had some wear on the lobes, but nothing drastic. According to a Citroen technician camshafts on this engines are not solid, and lobes itself can move on a shaft. They insisted on changing both camshafts with tensioner and chain.
I was out of the country at the moment, and van was needed for work so we went the expensive dealership route. This car had C2 oils prior to that failure. He also recommended using thicker oil afterwards as by his words they had better results with those.


Yes, the cams are hollow. Moving the lobes can happen if the pistons impact the valves. We used A3/B4 oil in all our customer cars back then, but even they had cam chain tensioner failures from excessive soot loqding. Total Quartz 9000 was used. Never any dpf issues btw...
 
It's an old shape 07 Berlingo without DPF. Ww sold that one that had issues, but this one is great. 255k km and still original clutch! I've used various C3, A3/B4 and from this OCI I'm using Urania FE LS 5w30 , E6, E7 oil. Only problem I've had was rear axle bearings, common on those.
 
common problem for that type of axle, should be considered a maintenance item. But I like how you can fit the axle under a flat floor, perfect solution for a small van like the Berlingo/partner.

I like that engine when it's running right, to bad it's had a troubled start of it's career.
 
It really is a good little van. When I'm careful enough it consume under 5L/100 km on open road. I didn't change bearings on axle when it first started knocking so shafts did get some wear, but usually it isn't loaded so don't care. To properly fix it now I would need new or used axle, but they are getting old now.

Edit: I've forgot to mention, car does have a bit erratic idle, but only when cold. What do you think, maybe injectors?
 
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Originally Posted By: chrisri
It really is a good little van. When I'm careful enough it consume under 5L/100 km on open road. I didn't change bearings on axle when it first started knocking so shafts did get some wear, but usually it isn't loaded so don't care. To properly fix it now I would need new or used axle, but they are getting old now.

Edit: I've forgot to mention, car does have a bit erratic idle, but only when cold. What do you think, maybe injectors?

Man, get Skodilak
cool.gif
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It really is a good little van. When I'm careful enough it consume under 5L/100 km on open road. I didn't change bearings on axle when it first started knocking so shafts did get some wear, but usually it isn't loaded so don't care. To properly fix it now I would need new or used axle, but they are getting old now.

Edit: I've forgot to mention, car does have a bit erratic idle, but only when cold. What do you think, maybe injectors?


Injectors are likely. at 255k they are approaching the end of their typical lifecycle. did you replace the glowplugs already? they continue to run after a cold start for up to 2 minutes
 
Yeah, I suspected injectors could be on their way out. Car still doesn't smoke, and run smooth when reaches operating temperature. Glowplugs are still original AGAIK. Car was low mileage when purchased. It starts great in the winter, but it is rarely below freezing, even over night.
 
the glowplugs aren't needed before starting unless it gets really cold (-15°c), but they help with running after starting, and depending on the coolant temp at startup can run up to 2 minutes, but at the temperatures you describe 20-30 seconds is more likely.
 
Typically a European 5W30 is limited by 3.5 min HTHS. A lot of these oils are formulated with Shellvis VIs which have good polymeric efficiency but relatively poor HTHS performance. Typically a 5W30 will have a high KV100 to make the 3.5 min HTHS (12.0 cst isn't uncommon). These oils aren't limited by KO30 shear.
The corresponding 5W40 will almost certainly be limited by KO30 shear before it's limited by HTHS (3.7 min if API specs are part of the spec claim). Even with Shellvis, you're probably talking about an actual 3.9 HTHS if the oil is going to meet 12.5 min after KO30.
Hope this helps...
 
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