Negatives of more oil

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
I never said it was going to cause problems. It is simply something that will happen.


Who says it'll happen. It's not an absolute. It's possible if the oil stays stagnant for months on end however I've got jugs that have date codes marked 2012 and there isn't any fall out.
So no. It's not a for sure thing and if the oil circulates even monthly the chances of additive fall out are less than slim.
Insols are more likely to fall out again depending on how long the oil sits before circulating.
Your making an issue out of something that isn't.


If it will fall out eventually it will always be falling out. You will never ever ever circulate all the oil through an engine no matter how small the sump is. There fore there will always be something at the bottom of the sump that was once suspended in the oil. The more oil there is the less the oil is moved. Less movement allows more separation. It is an absolute.

And as I have stated over and ove, It isn't going to make much difference. I am not making an issue out of it. It is something that will happen and it is something that would be negative even though it will cause a miniscule amount of harm,

Would you guys freak out if I said that you never get 100% of the old oil out when you change it and that means you engine still has some of the very first oil that was ever put in it still in it and that there is a higher concentration of the heavier that oil additives in the bottom of the pan than in the oil passages?

 

[DoubleWasp]

Don't know about your engines, but mine seem to pull the oil from the bottom of the pan.

I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to see an oil pump and pickup in action in an oil pan, but once it is in operation, everything around it is affected by suction immediately.

The sump is not a reservoir with stagnant sections. Between the black hole - like suction of a pickup, and the lateral forces being constantly applied on the oil by the movement of the vehicles, oil has no chance of stagnating in the sump.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Don't know about your engines, but mine seem to pull the oil from the bottom of the pan.

I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to see an oil pump and pickup in action in an oil pan, but once it is in operation, everything around it is affected by suction immediately.

The sump is not a reservoir with stagnant sections. Between the black hole - like suction of a pickup, and the lateral forces being constantly applied on the oil by the movement of the vehicles, oil has no chance of stagnating in the sump.


There will always be place where nothing will circulate albeit very very small. If you increase the sump size without increasing flow proportionally it will make the uncirculated spots slightly larger. Increasing capacity by one quart will make a measurable difference that none of us would have the ability to measure. Increase it by a large amount and you will be able to measure it at some point.

 

[Garak]

Are we forgetting precipitation mass versus temperature?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Are we forgetting precipitation mass versus temperature?


I knew there was something we were forgetting

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
There will always be place where nothing will circulate albeit very very small. If you increase the sump size without increasing flow proportionally it will make the uncirculated spots slightly larger. Increasing capacity by one quart will make a measurable difference that none of us would have the ability to measure. Increase it by a large amount and you will be able to measure it at some point.


Why do you insist in making a statement and then adding things like "very very small", "not noticeable" etc.? Do you think that it will somehow lessen the fallacy of the statement?

There is not a chance that there is a place in the engine that will have stagnant oil sitting while the vehicle is in operation.
I think you're forgetting about the G forces that the whole vehicle experiences, including the oil inside the engine, while accelerating, cornering and braking.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
There will always be place where nothing will circulate albeit very very small. If you increase the sump size without increasing flow proportionally it will make the uncirculated spots slightly larger. Increasing capacity by one quart will make a measurable difference that none of us would have the ability to measure. Increase it by a large amount and you will be able to measure it at some point.


Why do you insist in making a statement and then adding things like "very very small", "not noticeable" etc.? Do you think that it will somehow lessen the fallacy of the statement?

There is not a chance that there is a place in the engine that will have stagnant oil sitting while the vehicle is in operation.
I think you're forgetting about the G forces that the whole vehicle experiences, including the oil inside the engine, while accelerating, cornering and braking.


It is not a false statement. In a normal engine it will happen although not enough to make a difference. If you took re ridiculous example I gave in the first place it will be noticible.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Don't know about your engines, but mine seem to pull the oil from the bottom of the pan.

I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to see an oil pump and pickup in action in an oil pan, but once it is in operation, everything around it is affected by suction immediately.

The sump is not a reservoir with stagnant sections. Between the black hole - like suction of a pickup, and the lateral forces being constantly applied on the oil by the movement of the vehicles, oil has no chance of stagnating in the sump.


There will always be place where nothing will circulate albeit very very small. If you increase the sump size without increasing flow proportionally it will make the uncirculated spots slightly larger. Increasing capacity by one quart will make a measurable difference that none of us would have the ability to measure. Increase it by a large amount and you will be able to measure it at some point.


I'm going to have to raise the flag on this one.

Those who have made the mistake of installing a high volume pump in a stock sized sump have learned the hard way that a pump and pickup can completely clear the sump in a matter of seconds, leaving the sump and gallies with no oil in it, and no oil pressure.

Yes, the pump and pickup do move all of the oil, and g-forces handle the rest.

Where are the marine, RV, generator, ATV, and motorcycle UOA'S showing the horrors of additive separation from lack of circulation?

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
If you took re ridiculous example I gave in the first place it will be noticible.


I read your ridiculous example and it is just that, ridiculous. You ignore the fact that the vehicle will be moving and therefore the oil in the pan, no matter how big, will be sloshing around and mixing.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
If you took re ridiculous example I gave in the first place it will be noticible.


I read your ridiculous example and it is just that, ridiculous. You ignore the fact that the vehicle will be moving and therefore the oil in the pan, no matter how big, will be sloshing around and mixing.


haha yea. Oh noes, in my 20gallon gas tank, there's a pocket of old gas that has been hiding out avoiding the circulation and therefore has been hanging around since the car was built.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
haha yea. Oh noes, in my 20gallon gas tank, there's a pocket of old gas that has been hiding out avoiding the circulation and therefore has been hanging around since the car was built.


There will certainly be some gas molecules that have been in your tank since the day it was first filled...same as we have probably all had at least one molecule of water that has passed through Napoleon's kidneys in our body at some time in our life.

That's not the same as jhellwig's lack of circulation concept of pockets of stuff evading the circulation.

 

[weasley]

And let's get back to the original statement that even if there were some stagnation (which I agree with Shannow et al that there will not be) that this will definitely lead to additive separation. Additive separation or stratification is not a given - a well-formulated oil can stay together for years without any 'unblending'.

 

[mjoekingz28]

I dont know where you get your water Shannow, but, ours is from an aquifer.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I dont know where you get your water Shannow, but, ours is from an aquifer.


And it was put there 4,000 years ago I guess

 

[mjoekingz28]

How do you know?


Does it have a date stamp?