Negatives of more oil
- Thread starter mjoekingz28
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
More oil = more cooling.
No, a slightly larger, quickly filled heat sink, not more cooling.
Unless you've got the thermo to back you up...you owe me that lesson on this exact topic remember ?
+1 At some point, thermal mass isn't enough, the sink has to be able to dissipate what goes into it. Big problem with cooling electronics in space...no AIR to carry away the heat. Radiation cooling only. Vacuum, it's what's "in" a "Dewar Flask".
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
More oil = more cooling.
No, a slightly larger, quickly filled heat sink, not more cooling.
Unless you've got the thermo to back you up...you owe me that lesson on this exact topic remember ?
+1 At some point, thermal mass isn't enough, the sink has to be able to dissipate what goes into it. Big problem with cooling electronics in space...no AIR to carry away the heat. Radiation cooling only. Vacuum, it's what's "in" a "Dewar Flask".
Don't see any negatives, except perhaps longer warm up, but that shouldn't be more than an extra minute or so. My Mustang has a 6 qt sump and i'm sure it probably has 1.5-2 qts more than needed to run the engine. I also notice the OLM pretty much is set to a 10k OCI, in part due to the extra sump capacity, considering all my other cars were 4-5 qts and 5k-7.5k OCI for the OLM.
Added weight? I think a full size car can handle an extra 1/2 - 1 gallon of oil weight. LOl
Also my car seems to run hotter than some of the cars I've had in the past, so the warm up time doesn't seem longer, and I always let my car warm up (2-3 minutes 1st morning start/after work) before driving.
Added weight? I think a full size car can handle an extra 1/2 - 1 gallon of oil weight. LOl
Also my car seems to run hotter than some of the cars I've had in the past, so the warm up time doesn't seem longer, and I always let my car warm up (2-3 minutes 1st morning start/after work) before driving.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
More oil = more cooling.
No, a slightly larger, quickly filled heat sink, not more cooling.
Unless you've got the thermo to back you up...you owe me that lesson on this exact topic remember ?
You want another lesson? I gave you one on transmission systems and you went away mad.
Take a look at how much water is in your plant condenser cooling water system. Is it just enough to fill the loop? Or is there a lot of extra water in the cooling towers to add dwell time and mass?
Your homework assignment is to look at your circ water system and report back.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
More oil = more cooling.
No, a slightly larger, quickly filled heat sink, not more cooling.
Unless you've got the thermo to back you up...you owe me that lesson on this exact topic remember ?
You want another lesson? I gave you one on transmission systems and you went away mad.
Take a look at how much water is in your plant condenser cooling water system. Is it just enough to fill the loop? Or is there a lot of extra water in the cooling towers to add dwell time and mass?
Your homework assignment is to look at your circ water system and report back.
No, I just stopped arguing with you...you were beating me with experience, and not the engineering kind.
As to the CW, the volume does nothing, except ensure that you don't run out, and that the medium flows with adequate differential pressures.
Back to sumps, volume, and thermo...and how the extra volume does more than provide a temporary heat sink...please explain.
As to the CW, the volume does nothing, except ensure that you don't run out, and that the medium flows with adequate differential pressures.
Back to sumps, volume, and thermo...and how the extra volume does more than provide a temporary heat sink...please explain.
I don't think I've ever asked you directly. Are you a degreed engineer?
The extra volume stays in the pan longer to cool before being pumped back into the galleries. Like they say in your engineering texts. Obvious to even the most casual observer. Right?
The extra volume stays in the pan longer to cool before being pumped back into the galleries. Like they say in your engineering texts. Obvious to even the most casual observer. Right?
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't think I've ever asked you directly. Are you a degreed engineer?
No, you've told me that I have no qualifications, you've also told me that I'm a disgrunteled ex Westinghouse inspector, amongst other things.
Self evidence processes can be described mathematically...off you go, use your skills not insults.
I don't think I've ever asked you directly. Are you a degreed engineer?
No, you've told me that I have no qualifications, you've also told me that I'm a disgrunteled ex Westinghouse inspector, amongst other things.
Self evidence processes can be described mathematically...off you go, use your skills not insults.
Unless the extra oil is being fed through a oil cooler, amount really makes little difference... Most oil pans are isolated from any major air flow, once oil is heated, temps will be similar with a couple of quarts or 3x that...
Above said there would likely be lower temps in winter at say below 45*F, but that's exactly when it isn't necessary...
Above said there would likely be lower temps in winter at say below 45*F, but that's exactly when it isn't necessary...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't think I've ever asked you directly. Are you a degreed engineer?
No, you've told me that I have no qualifications, you've also told me that I'm a disgrunteled ex Westinghouse inspector, amongst other things.
Self evidence processes can be described mathematically...off you go, use your skills not insults.
I didn't say disgruntled. There's nothing wrong with being a turbine inspector. Probable only a handful of people in the world that do that.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't think I've ever asked you directly. Are you a degreed engineer?
No, you've told me that I have no qualifications, you've also told me that I'm a disgrunteled ex Westinghouse inspector, amongst other things.
Self evidence processes can be described mathematically...off you go, use your skills not insults.
I didn't say disgruntled. There's nothing wrong with being a turbine inspector. Probable only a handful of people in the world that do that.
Just ignore mr turtle. I value your knowledge and Iverkill's Shannow
Thank you
Thank you
OVERKILL***
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Please, explain your "additive separation based on quantity" theory. I'd really like to know more.
Yeah mee too, should be good entertainment...
You mean to tell me that a place where people are so nit picky that they smell their oil and filters this is a crack pot theory? People here agonize over how their filters and oil are stored and add all sorts of stuff to their vehicles to make it last just a tiny bit longer.
We all know that addatives settle out in a bottle of oil. It is evident by the dark stuff at the bottom of the bottle. For the sake of argument lets just say you had a geo metro with a 55 gallon sump. It would take so long to circulate almost all of the oil in the sump that addatives and contaminates would settle out in the corners away from the pickup. Compair that to the normal sump size and think how often the oil will be turned over compaired to the 55 gallon one. The more oil the less it circulates. It doesn't how much you have but the more oil in the sump the more will separate. It probably won't be enough to make a noticible difference in the longevity of the vehicle but it is still going to happen.
Hogwash. If you really knew what you were talking about you'd know how to spell "additives", "compare" and "noticeable". I've never seen additives (note the correct spelling) settle out of a bottle of oil. I will admit that I don't maintain an oil "stash" and only purchase what I need when I need it. But given that most vehicles are operated on a regular basis your "crackpot theory" (note that "crackpot" is all one word) doesn't hold. Additives don't settle out unless the oil sits for a very long time. Even if your Geo Metro is run once a month you won't see any additive separation-additives simply don't fall out of suspension that quickly.
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Please, explain your "additive separation based on quantity" theory. I'd really like to know more.
Yeah mee too, should be good entertainment...
You mean to tell me that a place where people are so nit picky that they smell their oil and filters this is a crack pot theory? People here agonize over how their filters and oil are stored and add all sorts of stuff to their vehicles to make it last just a tiny bit longer.
We all know that addatives settle out in a bottle of oil. It is evident by the dark stuff at the bottom of the bottle. For the sake of argument lets just say you had a geo metro with a 55 gallon sump. It would take so long to circulate almost all of the oil in the sump that addatives and contaminates would settle out in the corners away from the pickup. Compair that to the normal sump size and think how often the oil will be turned over compaired to the 55 gallon one. The more oil the less it circulates. It doesn't how much you have but the more oil in the sump the more will separate. It probably won't be enough to make a noticible difference in the longevity of the vehicle but it is still going to happen.
Hogwash. If you really knew what you were talking about you'd know how to spell "additives", "compare" and "noticeable". I've never seen additives (note the correct spelling) settle out of a bottle of oil. I will admit that I don't maintain an oil "stash" and only purchase what I need when I need it. But given that most vehicles are operated on a regular basis your "crackpot theory" (note that "crackpot" is all one word) doesn't hold. Additives don't settle out unless the oil sits for a very long time. Even if your Geo Metro is run once a month you won't see any additive separation-additives simply don't fall out of suspension that quickly.
And Pop's point, not to speak for him, is that additive separation happens irrespective of volume. If it takes five years for additives to fall out of suspension with a 55 gallon drum, you'll probably see something quite similar with a 5 quart jug sitting for five years in the same condition, with the same contents.
Originally Posted By: zach1900
increased capacity does not equate to longer life.
An oil molecule makes laps around the engine like a race car makes laps around a race track. Each time an oil molecule makes a lap around the engine, it has to go through the oil pump gears and get squished between the bearings and the bearing races. More oil means a bigger pool for that oil molecule to swim in and therefore it takes less trips through the gears and the bearings -- just like a bigger race track means the tires on a race car don't have to take as many turns -- which is easier on the tires.
increased capacity does not equate to longer life.
An oil molecule makes laps around the engine like a race car makes laps around a race track. Each time an oil molecule makes a lap around the engine, it has to go through the oil pump gears and get squished between the bearings and the bearing races. More oil means a bigger pool for that oil molecule to swim in and therefore it takes less trips through the gears and the bearings -- just like a bigger race track means the tires on a race car don't have to take as many turns -- which is easier on the tires.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Please, explain your "additive separation based on quantity" theory. I'd really like to know more.
Yeah mee too, should be good entertainment...
You mean to tell me that a place where people are so nit picky that they smell their oil and filters this is a crack pot theory? People here agonize over how their filters and oil are stored and add all sorts of stuff to their vehicles to make it last just a tiny bit longer.
We all know that addatives settle out in a bottle of oil. It is evident by the dark stuff at the bottom of the bottle. For the sake of argument lets just say you had a geo metro with a 55 gallon sump. It would take so long to circulate almost all of the oil in the sump that addatives and contaminates would settle out in the corners away from the pickup. Compair that to the normal sump size and think how often the oil will be turned over compaired to the 55 gallon one. The more oil the less it circulates. It doesn't how much you have but the more oil in the sump the more will separate. It probably won't be enough to make a noticible difference in the longevity of the vehicle but it is still going to happen.
Hogwash. If you really knew what you were talking about you'd know how to spell "additives", "compare" and "noticeable". I've never seen additives (note the correct spelling) settle out of a bottle of oil. I will admit that I don't maintain an oil "stash" and only purchase what I need when I need it. But given that most vehicles are operated on a regular basis your "crackpot theory" (note that "crackpot" is all one word) doesn't hold. Additives don't settle out unless the oil sits for a very long time. Even if your Geo Metro is run once a month you won't see any additive separation-additives simply don't fall out of suspension that quickly.
Ah yes, perfectly valid argument. Clearly I have no idea since I can't not spell good.
Yes additives do settle out.
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3549894/Additives_settle_out?
Contrary to what you are saying the don't just suddenly fall out after a specific amount of time. They are always falling out when the oil is not circulated enough no matter what. It is going to happen whether you like it or not.
And finally I said it probably wouldn't be enough to matter. But it will still happen.
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Please, explain your "additive separation based on quantity" theory. I'd really like to know more.
Yeah mee too, should be good entertainment...
You mean to tell me that a place where people are so nit picky that they smell their oil and filters this is a crack pot theory? People here agonize over how their filters and oil are stored and add all sorts of stuff to their vehicles to make it last just a tiny bit longer.
We all know that addatives settle out in a bottle of oil. It is evident by the dark stuff at the bottom of the bottle. For the sake of argument lets just say you had a geo metro with a 55 gallon sump. It would take so long to circulate almost all of the oil in the sump that addatives and contaminates would settle out in the corners away from the pickup. Compair that to the normal sump size and think how often the oil will be turned over compaired to the 55 gallon one. The more oil the less it circulates. It doesn't how much you have but the more oil in the sump the more will separate. It probably won't be enough to make a noticible difference in the longevity of the vehicle but it is still going to happen.
Hogwash. If you really knew what you were talking about you'd know how to spell "additives", "compare" and "noticeable". I've never seen additives (note the correct spelling) settle out of a bottle of oil. I will admit that I don't maintain an oil "stash" and only purchase what I need when I need it. But given that most vehicles are operated on a regular basis your "crackpot theory" (note that "crackpot" is all one word) doesn't hold. Additives don't settle out unless the oil sits for a very long time. Even if your Geo Metro is run once a month you won't see any additive separation-additives simply don't fall out of suspension that quickly.
Ah yes, perfectly valid argument. Clearly I have no idea since I can't not spell good.
Yes additives do settle out.
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3549894/Additives_settle_out?
Contrary to what you are saying the don't just suddenly fall out after a specific amount of time. They are always falling out when the oil is not circulated enough no matter what. It is going to happen whether you like it or not.
And finally I said it probably wouldn't be enough to matter. But it will still happen.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Please, explain your "additive separation based on quantity" theory. I'd really like to know more.
Yeah mee too, should be good entertainment...
You mean to tell me that a place where people are so nit picky that they smell their oil and filters this is a crack pot theory? People here agonize over how their filters and oil are stored and add all sorts of stuff to their vehicles to make it last just a tiny bit longer.
We all know that addatives settle out in a bottle of oil. It is evident by the dark stuff at the bottom of the bottle. For the sake of argument lets just say you had a geo metro with a 55 gallon sump. It would take so long to circulate almost all of the oil in the sump that addatives and contaminates would settle out in the corners away from the pickup. Compair that to the normal sump size and think how often the oil will be turned over compaired to the 55 gallon one. The more oil the less it circulates. It doesn't how much you have but the more oil in the sump the more will separate. It probably won't be enough to make a noticible difference in the longevity of the vehicle but it is still going to happen.
Hogwash. If you really knew what you were talking about you'd know how to spell "additives", "compare" and "noticeable". I've never seen additives (note the correct spelling) settle out of a bottle of oil. I will admit that I don't maintain an oil "stash" and only purchase what I need when I need it. But given that most vehicles are operated on a regular basis your "crackpot theory" (note that "crackpot" is all one word) doesn't hold. Additives don't settle out unless the oil sits for a very long time. Even if your Geo Metro is run once a month you won't see any additive separation-additives simply don't fall out of suspension that quickly.
Not that I want in any way to agree with pop rivit on anything he is dead on with this one.
Think about it. It barely takes a few shakes of a jug to mix any potential drop out back into suspension. Add heat and it takes even less movement to mix it all back together.
And I've got jugs that have been sitting for a couple years. I don't see any fall out except a rare jug,and a few shakes and its mixed so the whole idea of fall out causing problems is exactly as Pop describes.......nonsense.
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Please, explain your "additive separation based on quantity" theory. I'd really like to know more.
Yeah mee too, should be good entertainment...
You mean to tell me that a place where people are so nit picky that they smell their oil and filters this is a crack pot theory? People here agonize over how their filters and oil are stored and add all sorts of stuff to their vehicles to make it last just a tiny bit longer.
We all know that addatives settle out in a bottle of oil. It is evident by the dark stuff at the bottom of the bottle. For the sake of argument lets just say you had a geo metro with a 55 gallon sump. It would take so long to circulate almost all of the oil in the sump that addatives and contaminates would settle out in the corners away from the pickup. Compair that to the normal sump size and think how often the oil will be turned over compaired to the 55 gallon one. The more oil the less it circulates. It doesn't how much you have but the more oil in the sump the more will separate. It probably won't be enough to make a noticible difference in the longevity of the vehicle but it is still going to happen.
Hogwash. If you really knew what you were talking about you'd know how to spell "additives", "compare" and "noticeable". I've never seen additives (note the correct spelling) settle out of a bottle of oil. I will admit that I don't maintain an oil "stash" and only purchase what I need when I need it. But given that most vehicles are operated on a regular basis your "crackpot theory" (note that "crackpot" is all one word) doesn't hold. Additives don't settle out unless the oil sits for a very long time. Even if your Geo Metro is run once a month you won't see any additive separation-additives simply don't fall out of suspension that quickly.
Not that I want in any way to agree with pop rivit on anything he is dead on with this one.
Think about it. It barely takes a few shakes of a jug to mix any potential drop out back into suspension. Add heat and it takes even less movement to mix it all back together.
And I've got jugs that have been sitting for a couple years. I don't see any fall out except a rare jug,and a few shakes and its mixed so the whole idea of fall out causing problems is exactly as Pop describes.......nonsense.
I never said it was going to cause problems. It is simply something that will happen.
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
I never said it was going to cause problems. It is simply something that will happen.
Who says it'll happen. It's not an absolute. It's possible if the oil stays stagnant for months on end however I've got jugs that have date codes marked 2012 and there isn't any fall out.
So no. It's not a for sure thing and if the oil circulates even monthly the chances of additive fall out are less than slim.
Insols are more likely to fall out again depending on how long the oil sits before circulating.
Your making an issue out of something that isn't.
I never said it was going to cause problems. It is simply something that will happen.
Who says it'll happen. It's not an absolute. It's possible if the oil stays stagnant for months on end however I've got jugs that have date codes marked 2012 and there isn't any fall out.
So no. It's not a for sure thing and if the oil circulates even monthly the chances of additive fall out are less than slim.
Insols are more likely to fall out again depending on how long the oil sits before circulating.
Your making an issue out of something that isn't.
- Status
